Army Rout Level

[BrianC]

On another thread there was talk about winning a game and the value of BGs. I thought I would throw this out. Usually in the games that we play the game is decided before we hit the army break level. By that time either one side or the other has broken the main infantry line and is in mop up mode. If we continued to play it would simply break down into individual or groups of BGs chasing others around the board which I really don't want to do. We liken it to the one army has broken and is running and the victorious side is now pursuing. But from what I understand in tournaments they go strictly on BG losses and army break level. To be honest I am not usually aware of how many BGs I or my opponent lost during the game as the game seems to end when it feels right. And no one complains about it.

Has anyone else had games on a regular basis that are decided before the break level is reached? I was just curiuos how common this is.

Thanks

Brian

[hammy]

Most of the time it is fairly clear which side is going to win but I can remember one game in the Leeds doubles where we had our opponents 1 AP from breaking, we had a BG of steady armoured spear fighting some longbowmen in the open and we were 12 AP from defeat ourselves.

We did win the game but by the time we hit the winning point we had lost 10 AP of the 12 we could afford to lose and our spear (still steady) had not beaten the bow and were in danger of autobreaking if they lost one more base......

I would say that normally I know that given an infinite amount of time I know which side will win well before the end of the game. What the situation will be when time is called and if an army break will occur before then is harder to predict.

[daleivan]

On another thread there was talk about winning a game and the value of BGs. I thought I would throw this out. Usually in the games that we play the game is decided before we hit the army break level. By that time either one side or the other has broken the main infantry line and is in mop up mode. If we continued to play it would simply break down into individual or groups of BGs chasing others around the board which I really don't want to do. We liken it to the one army has broken and is running and the victorious side is now pursuing. But from what I understand in tournaments they go strictly on BG losses and army break level. To be honest I am not usually aware of how many BGs I or my opponent lost during the game as the game seems to end when it feels right. And no one complains about it.

Has anyone else had games on a regular basis that are decided before the break level is reached? I was just curiuos how common this is.

Thanks

Brian

My experience has been similar to yours, usually it becomes obvious who is going to win before the army break point is reached for that side. Granted we are usually playing to some sort of self-imposed time limit (four hours, for instance).

Cheers,

Dale

[hammy]

Another point relevant to this thread is that in doubles games, 1000 points 3 3/4 hours or 900 points 3 1/2 hours I am still keeping up my 50% or better army break percentage. As in more than half the doubles games I have played have resulted in army break.

[BrianC]

Dale, we play something similar usually between 4 and 5 hours and I don't think we have gotten an army break point yet, close but not reached. But then again we are getting faster now too and are at around 4 hours a game which for me gives me enough depth to enjoy it. I never liked fast play games over in an hour or less.

Thanks for the info Hammy, its always nice to know the length of games based on points and others experiences as well as table sizes as listed in another thread. You guys must be rocking to get so many army breaks. I have only played 2, 1,000 point games and really like it. You have so many more options than when using the starter armies like we have been.

Also sorry that I posted this thread in this forum. I was finishing reading the other thread and posted right away without thinking about the right forum. If someone wants to move this I am all for it.

Thanks

Brian

Another point relevant to this thread is that in doubles games, 1000 points 3 3/4 hours or 900 points 3 1/2 hours I am still keeping up my 50% or better army break percentage. As in more than half the doubles games I have played have resulted in army break.

[madaxeman]

The big difference I find is that in "competition" games there is an incentive to try and rally units in order to prevent the army breaking. I have had a few games where units have been "saved" right at the edge of the table and this has stopped my army breaking.

In club games I usually cant be bothered - once you have "lost" you agree to give up rathe rthan mop up !

[hammy]

In the 650 point 15mm on a 5' by 3' table event I ran in Birmingham back in May 75% of games reached army break within the 2 1/2 hour slot allocated to each game.

If you want to do the sums you can find out what proportion of games end up in army break because you get 25 points rather than 20 per game.

[BrianC]

For the longest time we were playing the starter armies on a 4 x 6 foot board. I wonder if that played a roll in our games being longer. I mention that because in our last game I mentioned to the other players that it seemed to take a long time to engage our lines. We played 756 points on about 5 feet by 7 feet. But once the lines engaged things started to happen fast and the turns seemed to fly.

Next game we'll stick to the forumula for an 800 point army and table size and see how it plays. Still its fun to experiment and see what works and what doesn't

Brian

In the 650 point 15mm on a 5' by 3' table event I ran in Birmingham back in May 75% of games reached army break within the 2 1/2 hour slot allocated to each game.

If you want to do the sums you can find out what proportion of games end up in army break because you get 25 points rather than 20 per game.

[BlackPrince]

sort of following on from another thread and this topic a had a real problem with DBM and your army breaking. I would like to share my last DBM game I ever played with you all.

I had not played DBM for a year or so before this game as did not really like it but a friend arranged for me to play another person at the club.

I fielded my later Crusader army and my opponent had an amry with LH, artillery and other stuff. As I was a bit rusty on DBM I asked some about the camp and was told it does not count as anything. As the game unfolded his LH looted my camp, big deal it does not count for anything then his artillery killed of a few stands of Bow I and then my opponent points out my army has broken no close combat just some poor archers with large holes in them. Needless to say was a bit taken aback that my army had just pack up and gone home with out my archers getting to a chance to shoot or Knights and spearmen seeing the white of their eyes. So far my two games of FoG have not produced a rubbish situations like that and I quite like the rules. The FoG AP points on face value would seem to stop this situation happening again.

[hammy]

sort of following on from another thread and this topic a had a real problem with DBM and your army breaking. I would like to share my last DBM game I ever played with you all.

I had not played DBM for a year or so before this game as did not really like it but a friend arranged for me to play another person at the club.

I fielded my later Crusader army and my opponent had an amry with LH, artillery and other stuff. As I was a bit rusty on DBM I asked some about the camp and was told it does not count as anything. As the game unfolded his LH looted my camp, big deal it does not count for anything then his artillery killed of a few stands of Bow I and then my opponent points out my army has broken no close combat just some poor archers with large holes in them. Needless to say was a bit taken aback that my army had just pack up and gone home with out my archers getting to a chance to shoot or Knights and spearmen seeing the white of their eyes. So far my two games of FoG have not produced a rubbish situations like that and I quite like the rules. The FoG AP points on face value would seem to stop this situation happening again.

Sounds to me like either your opponent didn't tell you correctly or you didn't understand the effect of baggage loss in DBM Either way I would have thought that it would have been polite for your opponent to point out as his light horse rushed for your baggage that losing it would hurt a bit.

I have only once seen a DBM army break without a command breaking but it can happen. Losing your baggage is 12 or 16 elements from your army break point and that hurts. In FoG the camp at 2 AP is often the straw required to break the opposing army's back but not in itself hugely important.

[BrianC]

I have only played a few games of Dbx and am no expert. I honestly did not enjoy the system much and didn't like playing on a postage stamp. Too used to playing on the steppes of Russia I guess. But the last game I played my opponent broke a few minor units then I noticed him straining to get some light troops I left on the edge of the battlefield. I was wondering why he was looking happy and eager. He takes them out and I say great now I can focus on the main line which was not really hurt at all. Then he tells me my army just routed. Then with no emotion I said"OH, so that was the game was it" It was totally not enjoyable what so ever. My army broke at 30 percent losses I think, I can't be sure as it was a few years ago. I just saw all these heavy troops waiting to mix it up but had to quit because a group of lights got killed. Since then I have not played again and am so thankful for FOG. Even with the army break point you usually know by then who has won or is winning and I prefer that kind of system.

Just need to get more games in.

Brian

[BlackPrince]

Hammy you are right I was not aware of the importance of your camp in DBM after not having played it for quite a while. I had been gaming in the Seven Years War where camps and baggage were a lot less important. In FoG there seems to be a better balance in regard to you camp and its loss.

[alexandathegreat]

when i play there are two ways to win

1) time up (3:30hrs) and got the most pionts

2) when you break the amount of troops needed to reach there breaking point p.s units dont have to be off table

[SirGarnet]

Quite often the battle is decided before an army breaks because the result is not in doubt.

Sometimes an army breaks before the battle is really decided but I feel less frequently than in DBM both due to the base vs. BG mechanics and the victory conditions - and not those occasional cherry-picking ninja victories as mentioned above.

For non-competition games I'd rather play to a real conclusion for the complete battle experience rather than call it on points when the issue is tactically still open.

[jre]

I do not think that breaking the enemy's center is a clear sign of victory against many armies. Quite a few times with Romans the legion line is Ok, but they have lost enough light troops/auxilliaries to lose the game. Now we tend to tally points in the joint phase to avoid surprises, as novice players can get upset if they lose without engaging the legion, and sometimes who believes he is winning is actually two points from an army break.

This usually happens when small armies fight large ones. If you are 8-4 you may think you are winning but be actually losing if you army has 9 BGs and the opponent has 20. Large armies can also make a comeback, as attrition finally starts to make its toll on a smaller army BGs. We have also had a small, good quality army get 10-0, then start losing its "combat" BGs to autobreak. Long term, the large army would win.

Of course, in reality as in games, an army loses also when its commander is demoralized, so unless it is a teaching game I am quick to accept my enemy's surrender, while I tend to fight to the bitter end.

José