Hellenistic Campaign circa 280 B.C.

[mceochaidh]

See the results of 279 B.C. above. In putting this information together, I realized that I omitted a section in the rules regarding the cost in talents associated with a major power using its turn to become a minor power and to invade another major power. I have changed the section Economics - Minor Powers.

Beginning with the upcoming turn for 278 B.C., if a major power chooses to attack a major power with a minor power, it is assumed that the major power is providing the funds to the minor power to mobilize and attack, costing the major power 500 talents. If such minor power defeats the major power, all booty will accrue to the "sponsoring" major power.

I thought it would also be useful to incorporate the relevant sections of the rules governing battles and economics:

Battles and Results
1. The player invaded chooses terrain based on terrain choices available in his area.
2. Final battles between major states are very large.
3. Other battles are large.
4. Decisive victories are those in which 30 percent difference is achieved, based on default method – for example, causing 40% casualties and receiving 10%. For battles between major powers, the victor receives 1000 talents in booty and the vanquished cannot attack the victor during the next year. It also pays tribute of 500 talents at the beginning of the next year. If the vanquished is a minor state. It becomes a client of the victor.
5. A less than decisive victory causes a retreat from the battlefield by the loser. The victor receives 500 talents in booty. The loser cannot attack the victor during the next year. The victor can attack that same enemy during the next yearly turn, assuming he is able (for example, not attacked himself by another enemy or forced to play a minor state). A second victory (of any kind) causes vanquished minor states to become client states. It causes vanquished major powers to pay tribute of 500 talents and prevents the major power from attacking this victor for 2 years. It may still attack other enemies.
6. A draw is any result in which less than 20% casualties inflicted on either player (percent routed) is the default result. Example – Player A has 18% casualties, Player B has 10%. Result is draw.



Economics – Major Powers
1. Each major power has a beginning treasury of 20,000 talents and an annual income of 1,000 talents, net of costs of running the state.
2. Each client state produces an annual income of 200 talents.
3. It costs 1,000 talents to mobilize and equip an army to attack another major power.
4. It costs 500 talents to mobilize and equip an army to defend your home territory or to attack a minor power.
5. Winning a battle decisively gives the victor 1000 talents and costs the loser 1000 talents.
6. Non-decisive wins gives the victor 500 talents and costs the loser 500 talents.
7. Draws will cost both sides 200 talents.
8. A major power needs at least 500 talents to defend itself from invasion. If it does not have this, then one final battle may be fought (assuming it has borrowed the needed funds). If it is defeated in this battle, it becomes a client state of the victor. Each major power that becomes a client state produces 500 talents for the victor annually. For example, if Rome conquers Carthage, Carthage produces 500 talents per year for Rome as its client state, reducing its own treasury.
9. As I intend for this campaign to be somewhat leisurely and allow players to have other games and campaigns going on, each player will be given 30 days to complete the battle for that particular game year. This should be more than enough time. It is up to the 2 players to manage this. We all have different schedules to comply with. However, if a player is non-responsive, then the following rules should govern: If a player does not respond to a battle request within 5 days, he will incur a decisive loss for that battle. If a player starts a battle and does not respond within 5 days to his turn, he will incur a decisive loss for the battle.


Economics – Minor Powers
1. Minor powers do not have a treasury and do not need one to attack. However, if a major power chooses to attack a major power with a minor power, it is assumed that the major power is providing the funds to the minor power to mobilize and attack, costing the major power 500 talents. In this case, the funds received due to winning the battle against the major power will be added to the treasury of that major power “sponsoring” the attack on the other major power.
2. If a minor power wins a battle against a major power, it will cost the major power 500 talents if it is a decisive loss, 200 talents if a non-decisive loss and a further 300 talents if 2 consecutive losses. In the case of a draw, both player’s major power will have a reduction of 200 talents from their treasury. For example, Macedon has a draw with Sparta. This will cost Macedon 200 talents and if Rome is playing Sparta, it will cost Rome 200 talents. The goal is to encourage playing to win the battle. If Sparta had won the battle, the booty from Macedon (500 talents if a decisive loss or 200 talents if not) would be given to Rome, who is this case is Sparta’s sponsor.

How to win the campaign
At the end of 10 years, the richest nation is considered the winner of the campaign. In order to win, create a plan to add territory and talents to your treasury. Invade, win battles and acquire client states to keep the treasury healthy. Use minor powers to distract the other major powers. Allow major powers to attack each other, while you pick up the pieces. In other words, do what the great powers did (or tried to do). If you are eliminated as a major power, you can keep playing as minor powers, taking the turn that the conquered major power would have.

Consider this a ready reference to the battles and Economics sections. I am going to condense the entirety of the rules and post them separately.

[rbodleyscott]

Beginning with the upcoming turn for 278 B.C., if a major power chooses to attack a major power with a minor power, it is assumed that the major power is providing the funds to the minor power to mobilize and attack, costing the major power 500 talents.

Darn, there goes my loop-hole.

[mceochaidh]

The wily Ptolemy!

[mceochaidh]

Here is the first 2/3 of the condensed rules. The last 1/3 is above. Sorry for the 2 parts, but I seem to have a problem copying and pasting the whole document. Please let me know your questions.

Hellenistic Campaign circa 280 B.C. (Condensed)

These are the great powers:
1. Epirus – Central
2. Rome – West
3. Macedon - Central
4. Carthage – West
5. Seleucids - East
6. Ptolemaic Empire – East

The campaign will last for 10 years, after which victory points (talents earned based on battle results and client states) will be determined. In 270 B.C., the campaign could continue, based on mutual interest, for another decade or more. Each turn will be one campaign year. Therefore one campaign year will be composed of a campaign season in which a major battle takes place. This is for simplicity, as historically, these many major battles did not ordinarily take place. This is one reason to include the players’ ability to use minor powers.

The Great or Major powers can invade other powers either in its own area (East, Central or West) or an adjacent area, whereas a minor power can only invade in its own area (East, Central, West). See any exceptions in the list below. The major exception is that Egypt and Carthage can invade each other. Once a major power wins a client state in another area, the major power can use this state to attack other powers in further areas. For example, If Rome invades and conquers Sparta, Sparta becomes a client state of Rome. In a subsequent turn, Rome can use Sparta as a staging area to invade Bithynia, which is in the East. Client states themselves lose the ability to invade other states. They, in effect, become neutral. They can be attacked by other powers. If they are, their “Patron State” can use its own army to defend or use the minor power’s army.

Certain minor powers (tribal barbarians and steppe peoples listed), if victorious, can migrate through conquest and invade adjacent areas. These minor powers are Galatians, Gauls and Sarmatians. If these powers defeat either major or minor powers decisively in battle or win 2 consecutive battles, they may invade an adjacent area by virtue of conquest. If they win the first battle, they remain in the minor power and the minor power can only attack this enemy and the reverse. The two adversaries are locked and may only fight each other. If the minor power is a client state, that state’s major power can send its own army in its own turn to attack the barbarians. If this battle is lost by the minor power who was attacked, the barbarian power will control and inhabit the new area they have conquered.

If the barbarians have defeated a major power, they can remain inside the area controlled by the major power. At the end of each turn in which the barbarian power remains in the area of a major power, the major power has its annual income reduced by 200 talents. For example, if the Galatians defeat the Macedonians, the Macedonians will have only 800 talents in income at the end of the year instead of 1000 talents. In subsequent turns, these barbarians can choose to migrate to another area. They can choose to invade any other power that the power they have conquered can invade, limited only by the requirement that they stay in the area they are in and cannot cross water (exception- if the Galatians attack and defeat Thrace, they can, in a subsequent turn, attack across the Propontus to Bithynia). In the example above, if the Galatians defeat Macedon, they could invade Sparta, but not Egypt (Ptolemaics). Galatians must start their migration by invading either Thrace or Macedon. Gauls must start by invading Rome or Celtiberia or Iberia. Sarmatians must start by invading Armenia, Atropatene or Pontus. Therefore, these are the only invasion points for these minor powers.
Each major power can choose to move and control a minor power or a barbarian power in any particular turn instead of moving itself, subject to the rules below and the rules governing battle results. This is intended to provide some variety of games for the players, but to not allow cooperation (at least not directly) with the major powers. Therefore, the minor powers are to be in different areas of influence from its major power. For example, if a player is in the central area, a minor state in the east or west may be chosen. Minor powers are assumed to not have the economic strength or level of sophistication to acquire client states. They can cause havoc to major states by invading both major states and their client states (but not other minor states). Such invasions must take place in their areas. For example, Boii can invade Rome, but not Macedon. Some minor powers are further limited by their geography and limits are noted below.
Antigonus Gonatus is a special case. Since he has a navy, he can invade in any area. If he invades a minor power and wins a major victory or 2 consecutive battles, he can take over the area of a minor power. In this case, he will continue to use the Macedonian army list.

If Antigonus invades and wins the first battle, he remains inside the major or minor state he has attacked. Minor states (being used by a major state in its turn) can only use the turn to attack Antigonus in this case. Major states can choose to ignore him, but it will cost them 200 talents per turn to do so. He can continue to attack the major state (only) he is in due to his victory. If Antigonus has occupied a minor power, the two adversaries are locked and may only fight each other. If the minor power is a client state, that state’s major power can send its own army in its own turn to attack Antigonus. If the second battle is lost by the minor power who was attacked, Antigonus will control and inhabit the new area he has conquered. If a second battle is lost by a major power (which must be an extra-large battle) then the major power must cede a portion of its territory to Antigonus, who will then have a minor state to rule. The major state will permanently have their annual income reduced by 200 talents. If Antigonus is defeated, he will continue to plot and scheme and look for another chance. He lived a long time.

As the interactions can get complicated, here are examples: Carthage, in its turn, chooses to use Antigonus to attack Ptolemy. Antigonus invades and defeats Ptolemy in a minor victory. This costs Ptolemy 500 talents to defend and 500 talents due to the minor loss. Ptolemy moves first in the next turn and ignores Antigonus. This will cost Ptolemy 200 talents, but Ptolemy sees more opportunity in invading Carthage, hoping for a major win. The next year, in Carthage’s turn, Carthage can use Antigonus to attack Ptolemy again. This battle must be extra-large. If Antigonus wins, Antigonus wins a minor state from within Ptolemaic Empire and as long as he holds it, Ptolemy’s annual income is reduced by 200 talents. Of course, in a later turn, Ptolemy can try to win this territory back. Once Antigonus wins a territory or minor state, he is treated as any other minor state, but retains his ability to attack as though he were a major power due to his navy. For example, if his minor state is in the east, he can attack in the centre as well as the east.


Minor powers in the East:
1. Arab –can only invade Ptolemaics, Seleucids
2. Armenia – cannot invade Ptolemaics, Bithynia
3. Atrophene – cannot invade Ptolemaics, Bithynia
4. Bithynian – cannot invade Ptolemaics, Armenia, Atrophene
5. Bosporan – cannot invade Ptolemaics
6. Nabatean – can only invade Ptolemaics, Seleucids
7. Pontic – cannot invade Ptolemaics
8. Sarmatian – cannot invade Egypt, Bithynia

Minor powers in the Central Area:
1. Achaean League – using the Greek list
2. Aetolian League – using the Greek list
3. Galatian – can invade Bithynia
4. Sparta – using the Greek list
5. Rhoxolani
6. Thracian
7. Antigonus Gonatus – using the Macedonian list without Elephants and Warbands until year 2 (279 B.C.), then regular Macedonian list – see below.

Minor powers in the West:
1. Apulian
2. Boii – using the Gallic list
3. Bruttian
4. Campanian
5. CeltIberian - Spanish
6. Gauls – tribes other than the Boii
7. Iberian - Spanish
8. Syracuse

Sequence of Play
1. Order of players’ movement is decided. Order is reversed each year.
2. First Player chooses to move or defers movement until other players have moved.
3. If First Player invades either as his major power or a minor power, power invaded must defend, causing battle. If a minor power is invaded, the last player to move this turn must defend as the minor power. If Player 1 attacks a minor power, Player 6 must defend as that minor power. Then if Player 2 also attacks a (different) minor power, then Player 5 must defend as that minor power. The Power invaded chooses terrain based on location being invaded. For example, Rome is invaded and chooses Mediterranean Hilly. All battles are large except for the final battle to determine the outcome of an invasion between 2 major powers, which is very large.
4. The next player in order chooses to move or defer movement. The players already committed to battle by being invaded by another player are ineligible to be invaded this turn.
5. Invasion and responses to invasion are completed until all players have moved and had a battle.

Here is an example of order of play:
In year 2 Ptolemy invades Coele Syria, part of the Seleucid Empire. Antiochus responds creating a battle. Since Antiochus had the second move and is committed to battle, it becomes Carthage’s turn. Carthage wants to destroy Syracuse. Phyrrus moves last in this year, so he must forego his plans and play Syracuse. Keraunos is still dealing with the Galatians, decides to attack again, so this will take Macedon’s turn. The Roman player must then play the Galatians.
In year 3, Epirus moves first. In year 2, Syracuse lost their battle against Carthage and has become a client. Phyrrus decides to attack Syracuse, so the Carthaginian player must respond as Syracuse, its client state. It may also respond using its own army. (If it does use its own army, then it must pay for mobilization.) Rome moves next and decides to attack the Samnites. Ptolemy moves last this turn so will play as the Samnites. Macedon has finally beaten off the Galatians, so decides to attack the Aetolian League. This only leaves the Seleucids to play the Aetolian League.
In year 4, Ptolemy foregoes his turn and instead uses it to become Antigonus. (Ptolemy is in the east and Antigonus in central) Antigonus invades Macedon. Antiochus moves next and invades Bythinia. Epirus moves last this turn, so must take the part of Bithynia. Carthage has lost Syracuse to Phyrrus and wants it back, so invades. Rome must play Syracuse.
Hopefully, this sequence of movement will create a strategic game within the tactical game. It will become important what decisions are made to invade (or not to invade) and in what order.

[mceochaidh]

Here is the updated map as of January 278 B.C. Aetolian League is client of Macedon and Syracuse is client of Carthage. The Galatians are now making themselves at home in Macedon.

[TheGrayMouser]

I'm trying to get a handle on a strategy in this game as so much is determined by what the 5 players before hand do. Money is King for victory conditions but I am a little confused on some of the ways to get that money;)

For example, can you attack another majors client with:

A another minor; ? and how much does THAT cost you, your opponent( if anything) what do you GAIN or lose for major victory minor etc etc...

B with your own force and " "

in both cases, does the client revert back to an independent? or does it now belong to you... ( I assume if A then the former and B the latter)

[TheGrayMouser]

The gods have failed to answer our prayers to enlighten us on the ways of this strange world where one must put down ones own ambitions to oversee punic and greek pretenders squabble over some dusty island.

We shall invade Campania to encourage resistance versus the tru oppressor, Rome.


RBS, I believe you need to establish the game as you chose terrain. Which appears could be anything in that area...

[rbodleyscott]

The gods have failed to answer our prayers to enlighten us on the ways of this strange world where one must put down ones own ambitions to oversee punic and greek pretenders squabble over some dusty island.

We shall invade Campania to encourage resistance versus the tru oppressor, Rome.


RBS, I believe you need to establish the game as you chose terrain. Which appears could be anything in that area...

Are you sure it is me? WilI I be first or last every year?

[TheGrayMouser]

The gods have failed to answer our prayers to enlighten us on the ways of this strange world where one must put down ones own ambitions to oversee punic and greek pretenders squabble over some dusty island.

We shall invade Campania to encourage resistance versus the tru oppressor, Rome.


RBS, I believe you need to establish the game as you chose terrain. Which appears could be anything in that area...

Are you sure it is me? WilI I be first or last every year?

Hmm, no I'm not certain sure..pretty sure.. I believe that is the flow though, and I too appear to be first and last...
**********
Sequence of Play
1. Order of players’ movement is decided. Order is reversed each year.
2. First Player chooses to move or defers movement until other players have moved.
3. If First Player invades either as his major power or a minor power, power invaded must defend, causing battle. If a minor power is invaded, the last player to move this turn must defend as the minor power. If Player 1 attacks a minor power, Player 6 must defend as that minor power. Then if Player 2 also attacks a (different) minor power, then Player 5 must defend as that minor power. The Power invaded chooses terrain based on location being invaded. For example, Rome is invaded and chooses Mediterranean Hilly. All battles are large except for the final battle to determine the outcome of an invasion between 2 major powers, which is very large.
4. The next player in order chooses to move or defer movement. The players already committed to battle by being invaded by another player are ineligible to be invaded this turn.
5. Invasion and responses to invasion are completed until all players have moved and had a battle.

[rbodleyscott]

Are you sure it is me? WilI I be first or last every year?

Hmm, no I'm not certain sure..pretty sure.. I believe that is the flow though, and I too appear to be first and last...
**********
Sequence of Play
1. Order of players’ movement is decided. Order is reversed each year.
2. First Player chooses to move or defers movement until other players have moved.
3. If First Player invades either as his major power or a minor power, power invaded must defend, causing battle. If a minor power is invaded, the last player to move this turn must defend as the minor power. If Player 1 attacks a minor power, Player 6 must defend as that minor power. Then if Player 2 also attacks a (different) minor power, then Player 5 must defend as that minor power. The Power invaded chooses terrain based on location being invaded. For example, Rome is invaded and chooses Mediterranean Hilly. All battles are large except for the final battle to determine the outcome of an invasion between 2 major powers, which is very large.
4. The next player in order chooses to move or defer movement. The players already committed to battle by being invaded by another player are ineligible to be invaded this turn.
5. Invasion and responses to invasion are completed until all players have moved and had a battle.

That seems fairly conclusive.

I have set up the challenge - Campanian vs Pyrrhic, Large, Mediterranean Hilly. PW: doom

[mceochaidh]

TGM and Richard, you have made the correct decision. The order is flipped each turn. Richard moved first last turn, so TGM moves first this turn and Richard is the first available player to respond. Nigel-Rome is up next to choose. Since I have the next to last slot this turn, I will be next up to play if a minor state is attacked. If Nigel attacks a client state and the Sponsor of that client is available to respond (not already committed to battle) then that sponsor would respond. For example, if Rome attacks Syracuse, now a client of Carthage, Carthage would respond because Carthage is not presently committed to battle. If that occurs then Macedon-Ian is up next and would fight me. He would then have to choose a minor state to attack, not a client or major power, as the rest of the major powers players are committed.

This is my rather crude way of dealing with the goal of each turn resulting in a battle for each player.

TGM, I will answer your other post shortly. Sorry for the delay. Dealing with sick wife, sick father-in-law and board meeting all in the same 24 hours!

Mac

[Ironclad]

Since Campania's under attack I suppose I can't do likewise this year so better head north (when in doubt stomp a barbarian).

Rome attacks Boii.

[ianiow]

Am I right in thinking that the Galatians will be taking 200T from Macedonia each turn indefinitely? If so what are my choices other than to attack them? May I buy them off and send them to attack someone else?

[mceochaidh]

Nigel, I will defend as the Boii. It may be tomorrow before I can set up the game. It will be large with PW Nike.

Ian, you are stuck! The only way to get rid of those pesky Galatians is to attack and defeat them OR hope that in some other turn, another player chooses to move them out of Macedonia to invade another power. Since they are unpredictable and subject to whimsey, any sort of victory will drive them back to their home. It will cost you 500T to mobilize for this epic struggle. Pete, I believe you would be the opponent and set up the battle. Large battle.

[mceochaidh]

by TheGrayMouser » 05 Dec 2017 19:06
I'm trying to get a handle on a strategy in this game as so much is determined by what the 5 players before hand do. Money is King for victory conditions but I am a little confused on some of the ways to get that money;)

For example, can you attack another majors client with:

A another minor; ? and how much does THAT cost you, your opponent( if anything) what do you GAIN or lose for major victory minor etc etc...

B with your own force and " "

in both cases, does the client revert back to an independent? or does it now belong to you... ( I assume if A then the former and B the latter
•
TGM - I hope this provides an answer to you.

You may attack another major’s client with another client, provided that the major power attacked is not already engaged or committed to battle that year/turn. If you do so, you (Epirus) are considered the sponsor of the attacking minor and must pay 500T to mobilize. If you use the Apulians to attack Syracuse, for example, you fund the 500T. Syracuse is now a client of Carthage, so Carthage (Pete ) must be available to respond. Carthage may do so by fighting with the Syracusans or with the Carthaginian army. If Pete chooses to fight with the Syracusans, it does not cost Carthage for mobilization. If Pete chooses to fight with Carthage, it costs 500T to mobilize.

There are two grades of victory: decisive (30 percent or more routed than received) and ordinary (for want of a better term!). If the Apulians win a decisive victory, Syracuse becomes a client of Epirus. In this case, there will be booty of 500T, which will be paid by Carthage. If the result is an ordinary victory for the Apulians, there will be booty of 200T, which will be paid by Carthage. The Syracusans, in the case of an ordinary victory, remain a client of Carthage. I assume they have retreated to their fortifications. If the Syracusans are defeated in a subsequent year/turn, while still a client state of Carthage, by either Epirus or a sponsored minor power of Epirus, then the Syracusans will become a client of Epirus and Carthage will pay booty of 300T if an ordinary victory or 500T if decisive.

If the Apulians lose decisively to Syracuse, the Apulians will become a client of Carthage. Booty of 500T will be paid by Epirus to Carthage. If the result is an ordinary victory by Syracuse, booty of 200T will be paid to Carthage by Epirus. Since there is no client relationship at this time between Apulia and Epirus a subsequent loss to Carthage would not cost Epirus. A subsequent victory by Carthage would make Apulia a client of Carthage.

If you use Epirus directly to attack Syracuse, it will cost the same 500T to mobilize. Carthage could choose to defend using the Syracuse army, in which case, it does not cost Carthage, or, use the Carthaginian army in which case it costs 500T. The booty gained is the same as above. Winners get booty from losers.

The choice to attack using a minor power or your own major power really depends on how you think the particular army may fare against the opponent. Or, in the case of the migrating barbarians or Antigonus, what mischief they may cause to other major powers.

If this is not clear, please let me know.

[ianiow]

On the condition that I'd rather fight a Greek Pete than a Gatatian Pete. The Macedonians will continue to bully ..I mean liberate more of Greece. I will attack the Achaean League.

[mceochaidh]

Pete should set this up then, large battle to defend the honor of Greece.

[mceochaidh]

Nigel,

Game up. PW Nike

Mac

[Ironclad]

Nigel,

Game up. PW Nike

Mac

Accepted. No human sacrifices or the Druids get it.

[76mm]

HI, you mentioned on the first page that you might be rolling something else out once Immortal Fire was out. Any updates?