Polish Kn/Cv bgs

[Scrumpy]

Has anyone tried these out ?

[hammy]

Has anyone tried these out ?

I have a feeling someone used them at Warfare last year using the beta list.

They are most definitely different to run of the mill knights.

The main benefit is being able to absorb a bit more shooting and taking more hits to get to 1HP3B, base losses hurt but not as much as with pure knights.

[rbodleyscott]

Has anyone tried these out ?

I have a feeling someone used them at Warfare last year using the beta list.

I used Lithuanians + Poles at Warfare, but I did not use the mixed BGs. I had tried them before with the strzelcy as Protected and they proved a severe liability if a front rank base was lost. With Armoured strzelcy they would be better, but I am not entirely convinced. I prefer separately deployed Protected strzelcy - excellent value at 10 points per base.

[ethan]

I have a hard time seeing this as being worth the points. I do think having a relatively large number of crossbow cavalry BGs as a supplement to the knights might be quite handy, but the mixed ones seems very expensive for the relatively limited benefit. Better to alternater Knights and crossbows in the line IMO.

[Scrumpy]

Gave them a run out last night against some Later Russians. As I thought they coped well in period against the enemy, managing to break a bow bg, and chew up a superior Boyar bg. The real stars of the battle were the 3 Strzelcy bgs, each stood to recieve a charge from some Boyars, and managed to throw enough 5s & 6s that they ended up not dropping a cohesion level between them.

Interesting army the Poles, got a couple of questions about the Lancer banners too.

1) Not sure if I read this correctly, but 1/2 the Lancer banner has to be Xb Cv, as to the other half.. do they have to be 1/2 Kn, 1/2 Cv or do you get the option for that part to be all Kn, all Cv or a mix ?

2) If you can have a unit of 1/2 Cv la & 1/2 Cv Xb, can they skirmish away if in a single rank ?

Cheers

[hammy]

The lancer banner BGs have to be either 1/2 knights and 1/2 crossbow cavalry or 1/2 lancer cavalry and 1/2 crossbow cavalry.

If they are all cavalry then as some are lancers they are still shock troops so can't evade even if in a single rank.

[nikgaukroger]

I think I can answer (2) without having to look anything up

No - the BG has to be wholly non-shock Cavalry in order to be able to evade.

[ethan]

I think the Poles are an interesting looking army, one of the few Kn armies that can get +3/+4 Initiative reasonably easily with a nice mix of troops as well.

[rtaylor]

Last night I played my Later Teutonics vs. Scrumpy's Later Poles with three lancer banner BGs of 4 bases each. Their shooting disrupted one of my knight BGs, after which he charged into my knight battle line and blew out the disrupted BG. The two outside lancer banners were overlapped and beaten, but that was a numbers thing. (My army had five BGs of knights.)

By the numbers, the lancer banners are not bad. My knights were on a three-base front so he rolled 3 superior shooting dice needing 4s. Getting 2+ hits is very possible. If a lancer banner front-rank base died, then it had one file of knights and one file of two armoured cavalry -- still rolling four combat dice, albeit two at a -1 POA vs. heavily armoured swordsmen..

Basically, the lancer banners are betting that their early advantage in shooting will offset a possible later disadvantage in close combat.

[Scrumpy]

I made the mistake of not getting more shooting in, looking back I should have shot you up till you were all haggared before the Kn/Cv hit, live & learn.

[rtaylor]

I made the mistake of not getting more shooting in, looking back I should have shot you up till you were all haggared before the Kn/Cv hit, live & learn.

Then you would get one more bound of shooting before I charged you, assuming your lancer banners passed their CMT not to charge. As I recall, only one BG had a general with it, so you were looking at two 7+'s and one 6+ to pass. So at least one lancer banner BG would probably have charged into a double overlap (and not gotten to shoot).

[philqw78]

only one BG had a general with it, so you were looking at two 7+'s and one 6+

If they were the regulars the one with the general would need 5, the others 6 if in command range (1 less if an ic.)

[Scrumpy]

They were not lancer banners, I fielded the pre-1455 version.

I meant I should have deployed the Kn/Cv further back, and attempted to shoot you u with Xb Cv & B Lh before the Kn/Cv were engaged.

[rtaylor]

They were not lancer banners, I fielded the pre-1455 version.

I meant I should have deployed the Kn/Cv further back, and attempted to shoot you u with Xb Cv & B Lh before the Kn/Cv were engaged.

Gotcha. I agree.

[DuncA]

I used Poles against a Mamluk Egyptian the other week.
I had 2 BGs of all x-bow, 3 of all knights, and 4 of mixed knights/x-bow.

The all x-bow BGs were mauled by some Bedouin Lance cavalry, in the future I wouldn't rely on having 2 units side by side to attempt to maximise shooting.

The all knights BGs were at the other end of my battle line, generally spent their time chasing off cavalry and light horse whilst slowly getting whittled down by bows (but it did take most of the game).

The mixed units did give the single ranked BGs of armoured cavalry a big shock with their first shot though. Hitting on 4s and re-rolling the 1s meant that I managed to hit 1 unit 5 times with the first shot.

For 72 points you're almost matching a unit of 4 knights costing 92 points in melee (assuming both are 4s in two ranks). Obviously, over time the 4 knights BG should win. But the mixed banner has the advantages of possibly disrupting the knights before contact; and also should have a longer battle line or spare units, so should be able to be pressing home an advantage elsewhere.

[rtaylor]

For 72 points you're almost matching a unit of 4 knights costing 92 points in melee (assuming both are 4s in two ranks). Obviously, over time the 4 knights BG should win. But the mixed banner has the advantages of possibly disrupting the knights before contact; and also should have a longer battle line or spare units, so should be able to be pressing home an advantage elsewhere.

(Emphasis mine.) With a battle line of knights, I deploy all but the outside BGs in 3 files with a single base in the second rank. That way two all-knight BGs (184 points) can match up with three lancer banner BGs (216 points). The crossbows do have a cost.

[DuncA]

For 72 points you're almost matching a unit of 4 knights costing 92 points in melee (assuming both are 4s in two ranks). Obviously, over time the 4 knights BG should win. But the mixed banner has the advantages of possibly disrupting the knights before contact; and also should have a longer battle line or spare units, so should be able to be pressing home an advantage elsewhere.

(Emphasis mine.) With a battle line of knights, I deploy all but the outside BGs in 3 files with a single base in the second rank. That way two all-knight BGs (184 points) can match up with three lancer banner BGs (216 points). The crossbows do have a cost.

Although, if you're 3 bases wide, then the Xbows from a 2nd rank have a much better chance of scoring 2 shooting hits (hitting on 4s and rerolling 1s), thus getting you to take some disruption tests before you contact.

And, because they have a missile weapon, they can put more pressure on units that would just evade/move away from the “all knights” units.

Essentially, the units are a bit cheaper and more versatile than “all knights” units. But, if you get yourself stuck in to an extended set of melees, you will probably come off second best; so it is important that the extra versatility is utilised rather than diving head first into melee with them.