LF Screens

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:06 pm

Good point there Lawrence - and a good example of why it is best to give a complete explanation to avoid uncertainty

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:00 am

hammy wrote:
philqw78 wrote:If the intercept charge can move a full 4 or 2 MU it is possible to contact not charging troops etc. It is a minimum move.

but the why can't I move further
its not your move. Its still a game and as above it could give badly balanced results

and its L8 o nfriday/sat early so 2moro
It must have been past your bed time Phil

An interception charge cannot contact the front of a charging BG. It can contact the flank or rear. The interception charge is upto the allowed distance (2MU or 4MU) but does not have to be the full distance. It must touch the path of the charge otherwise the interception is not allowed.

So Hammy just to be explicit. When you intercept you can move straight ahead up to your limit. You cannot contac chargers unless from the side or rear. But you can move as far as you want even if this pushes you past the point where your BG interferes with the chargers charge. It just gets you more in the way. I think Phil was saying that you can only intercept just to the point of where you are just interfering, then you have to stop. Even if you can still move say 3 more MU.

Also I tried in pictures to reflect the example you gave. When I read the rules it said something like you must cross the path of the chargers. But the example you gave and I posted pics for to me at least shows the triarii not crossing the path but merely touching the path. Is that the same thing as crossing the path? To me its 2 completely different meanings. I just want to find the intention of the rule authors. If needed I'll pen in my rules that it means touching the path not crossing.

Thanks for any help

Brian

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:08 am

BrianC wrote:So Hammy just to be explicit. When you intercept you can move straight ahead up to your limit. You cannot contac chargers unless from the side or rear. But you can move as far as you want even if this pushes you past the point where your BG interferes with the chargers charge. It just gets you more in the way. I think Phil was saying that you can only intercept just to the point of where you are just interfering, then you have to stop. Even if you can still move say 3 more MU.

Exactly and I am 100% sure of this one

Also I tried in pictures to reflect the example you gave. When I read the rules it said something like you must cross the path of the chargers. But the example you gave and I posted pics for to me at least shows the triarii not crossing the path but merely touching the path. Is that the same thing as crossing the path? To me its 2 completely different meanings. I just want to find the intention of the rule authors. If needed I'll pen in my rules that it means touching the path not crossing.

I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.

I will see if I can get a design team comment.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:25 am

hammy wrote:I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.

I will see if I can get a design team comment.

They might also comment on whether it is allowble to stop at a position where the chargers will only hit the interceptors after stepping foward.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:42 am

I thought I had this sorted out in my head. Stopping where they are first in the path of the charge seemed the easiest, so I assumed that was it (sufficient). It would be nice if they could tell us how far into the charge path the interceptors can go. And can an intercept contact enemy that are not charging?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:13 am

philqw78 wrote:I thought I had this sorted out in my head. Stopping where they are first in the path of the charge seemed the easiest, so I assumed that was it (sufficient). It would be nice if they could tell us how far into the charge path the interceptors can go. And can an intercept contact enemy that are not charging?

These are easy and I am sure of the answer

An interception can move as far as it wants upto the maximum intercept distance

An interception is not a charge (unless it is a flank or rear one), it cannot contact any enemy BGs (other than one declaring a charge if the contact is a legal flank charge).

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:27 am

I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.

But since the Triarii can move more than 2 MU this is now moot as they can go 2 MU and a gnats todger to cross the path, or at least be in the path not at the end of the path. It would make a difference for Knights intercepting to their max distance though.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:18 am

lawrenceg wrote:
hammy wrote:I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.

I will see if I can get a design team comment.
They might also comment on whether it is allowble to stop at a position where the chargers will only hit the interceptors after stepping foward.

I think there are 2 different positions here.

a) they intercept into a position where they would be contacted only by the charger stepping forward when the charger otherwise wouldn't have stepped forward.
I think this case is clear - they are not crossing the path of the charge.

b) they intercept into a position where they would be contacted only by the charger stepping forward when the charger would have stepped forward into something else.
I think this is slightly less clear, however I think they are in this case crossing the path of the charge.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:28 am

philqw78 wrote:
I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.
But since the Triarii can move more than 2 MU this is now moot as they can go 2 MU and a gnats todger to cross the path, or at least be in the path not at the end of the path. It would make a difference for Knights intercepting to their max distance though.

Where do you get that triarii can move more than 2MU? They can move upto 2MU but do not have to stop as soon as they reach a point where the charge would contact them. I have not said anything about intercepts being anything other than 2MU for infantry and 4 for mounted.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:20 pm

Where do you get that triarii can move more than 2MU

Sorry I made it up. Not concentrating

paulcummins · Post by **paulcummins** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:03 pm

I really dont understand this not intercepting from the front bit.

have I missed somehing important?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:33 pm

paulcummins wrote:I really dont understand this not intercepting from the front bit.

have I missed somehing important?

You can intercept from the front, it is just that you cannot actually contact the enemy with an interception unless you make a legal flank or rear charge.

Once your intercepting BG is in the path of a charge the chargers will automatically hit you anyway so you can charge from the front.

Where it can be significant is where the intreception comes in at an angle across the front of another BG, because it can't hit the chargers the chargers have the option to wheel which may allow them to still just hit their intital target.

Here my knights facing up the page have been intercepted by the knights at the left of my line. I couldn't prevent the intercept as it was too far from my other BG.

If the interception actually contact my knights then I can't wheel then my knight BG would be unable to charge the archers infront of them. As the interception is not a charge, it doesn't actually hit me, just gets in the way and my knights end up in a nasty complex melee or don't fight the bow.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:15 pm

hammy wrote:
BrianC wrote:So Hammy just to be explicit. When you intercept you can move straight ahead up to your limit. You cannot contac chargers unless from the side or rear. But you can move as far as you want even if this pushes you past the point where your BG interferes with the chargers charge. It just gets you more in the way. I think Phil was saying that you can only intercept just to the point of where you are just interfering, then you have to stop. Even if you can still move say 3 more MU.
Exactly and I am 100% sure of this one
Also I tried in pictures to reflect the example you gave. When I read the rules it said something like you must cross the path of the chargers. But the example you gave and I posted pics for to me at least shows the triarii not crossing the path but merely touching the path. Is that the same thing as crossing the path? To me its 2 completely different meanings. I just want to find the intention of the rule authors. If needed I'll pen in my rules that it means touching the path not crossing.
I am less sure about the touching the path one, you have a valid point that the Triarii if they are 2 MU behind their colleagues don't actually 'cross' the path of the charge.

I will see if I can get a design team comment.

Thanks Hammy I would be interested to hear what the team says about this.

To me the way the wording is, you must break the plane rather than just contact it, thats what crossing the path means to me. But then again I can see if the wording is changed, your strategy working as you are intercepting an opponent to help out a friendly BG. You are potentially taking away some heat from them in the impact phase. You are still contacting the enemy in your interception charge (albeit not directly). So the end result of your interception charge is still combat.

Just as an aside. Do you think it would be possible and/or feasible to compile and post in a file somewhere the rulings that occur at competitions? This could go a long way in helping to understand the intention of the rules and how they are applied on the competition front.

Just an idea,

Thanks

Brian

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:33 pm

hammy wrote: Where it can be significant is where the intreception comes in at an angle across the front of another BG, because it can't hit the chargers the chargers have the option to wheel which may allow them to still just hit their intital target.

No - the chargers get no option at all, they must carry on their charge as defined.
Allthough the rules state that direction of charge is not declared untill after interception, in practice it must be determined before intercpetion so that you know who can intercept and where the charge path they need to cross is. The chargers may be able to contact the orrigional target - they just can't react in any way to the interception.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:40 pm

Looking at your diagram it looks as if the knights would contact all 5 bases in front of them just went straight forward - but would only fight 4 of them.
With the wheel it looks as if you contated the one from the end, and thus if there had been no interception you would have contacted only 4 bases - and fought only 4 bases.

I think this is an illegal wheel as you are contacting less bases, though are fighting the same number of bases.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:42 am

Well it is the number of bases fighting in the Impact Phase that matters and not the number contacted so I don't see a problem. Page 53 point 2.

For some reason contacted has crept into common usage

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:23 am

sagji wrote:Looking at your diagram it looks as if the knights would contact all 5 bases in front of them just went straight forward - but would only fight 4 of them.
With the wheel it looks as if you contated the one from the end, and thus if there had been no interception you would have contacted only 4 bases - and fought only 4 bases.

I think this is an illegal wheel as you are contacting less bases, though are fighting the same number of bases.

If you look carefully at the picture you will see that the knights are more than a base depth from the archers so if they charge directly forwards they will only hit the intercepting BG and none of the bow.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:14 am

To me the way the wording is, you must break the plane rather than just contact it, thats what crossing the path means to me. But then again I can see if the wording is changed, your strategy working as you are intercepting an opponent to help out a friendly BG. You are potentially taking away some heat from them in the impact phase. You are still contacting the enemy in your interception charge (albeit not directly). So the end result of your interception charge is still combat.

The rule states that the intercepters must:
"Cross the path of the charging enemy battle group."

To cross the path they must end up between the chargers and their target. This will mean that the chargers MUST contact the intercepters with a front edge or front corner, and therefore will fight the intercepters with at least one base.
It the intercept stops exactly level with the target base they are not 'crossing the path' - therefore this is not allowed.
If you want a continuous front, then position them earlier!!

The intercepters will not be at a disadvantage if slightly ahead of the target because the remaining bases of the charging BG must still step forwards into their original target.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:16 am

hammy wrote:
sagji wrote:Looking at your diagram it looks as if the knights would contact all 5 bases in front of them just went straight forward - but would only fight 4 of them.
With the wheel it looks as if you contated the one from the end, and thus if there had been no interception you would have contacted only 4 bases - and fought only 4 bases.

I think this is an illegal wheel as you are contacting less bases, though are fighting the same number of bases.
If you look carefully at the picture you will see that the knights are more than a base depth from the archers so if they charge directly forwards they will only hit the intercepting BG and none of the bow.

Which isn't relevant as the chargers determine their path before the knights intercept. Therefore the wheel must be legal without the intervention of the knights.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:28 pm

Indeed, per the FAQ:

"Although this is not normally necessary, you do need to declare the path of your charge at the time of declaration if there
are potential interceptors around, in order to determine whether your chargers will cross their zone of interception."

So in the example the knights could only wheel if that was initially declared and that wheel must conform to the bases fighting at Impact rule.

As far as I am aware there is no requirement that an intercepted charge actually hit the intended target of the charge - have I missed something as Hammy's post seems to imply that he thinks it must.