How to deal with LB

[vercingetorix]

I was wondering what the best way to deal with LB is.

especially with Knights and HF.

thanks

[carlos]

Dismount; fight in the open; keep troops together; keep generals close to cohesion bonus and bolstering; don't waver until you get there.

[vercingetorix]

I was thinking from the standpoint of Scots spearmen and or french knights. heavy foot would take a minimum of 3 volleys before they made contact which seems really tough to get through. Would there be any point in dismounting knights if the LB don't have stakes?

also -- is there a poa for HF vs MF on impact, I can't remember, but I know there is a poa for mounted against MF?

[paulcummins]

If the LB dont have stakes - ride em down.
Otherwise any halfway decent foot will do the job.
Armoured sword and buckler men (armoured, superior, Sup Sword, MF) scare the pants of LB.
in fact decent Armoured MF will do the job.

[jlopez]

With knights vs stakes you might want to dismount some BGs but keep at leat one mounted. However, what you need more than anything is aggression. Damn it, mass your troops and charge in. Have faith! The more afraid you are of the longbowmen, the more shots they are likely to get in while you manoeuvre around for a hypothetical advantage. Just think of them as Thracian javelinmen with shooting capabilities.

Julian

[philqw78]

also, is there a poa for HF vs MF on impact?

No but the MF take a minus on the CT for losing to HF

[Scrumpy]

Throw 6s, a tried and tested method.

[vercingetorix]

If taking on 100 yr War english with Scots what would you do? The Spearmen would take a minimum of 3 volleys before making contact -- is that worth it?

[madmike111]

Buy the cheapest LF your army allows and use them as a one rank deep screen, poor quality is best. You want either one of these events to occur, during the approach the LF break from the LB and rout leaving your HF/MF open to charge or better yet you have impact or offensive spear/pike that charge through LF.

Either way the light foot is wrecked so buy the cheapest, but a 2 pt javlinmen is a good exchange for 13 pt longbow man + stakes.

[vercingetorix]

the only problem is that I can't get any LF in the Scottish army.

[jlopez]

Imagine a face-off between an 8 base BG of longbowmen and a 10 base BG of spearmen. You deploy the spearmen three deep (4-4-2) to match the longbowmen. The longbowmen now need to get 4 hits out of 4 dice at long range and 6 dice at short range. Odds are that at long range you are safe and at short range he will make you test every other volley. So in effect out of three effective range volleys he might make you test once or twice.

You can deploy units in rear support and have a TC or better in command range which give a minimum of +2 to the cohesion test assuming the longbowmen don't get the five hits they need to get the -1 factor (1HP2B). That means you pass your tests on 5 or better which gives you 29/36 chances of passing if I'm not mistaken.

The Scots do have up to 12 LF longbowmen so you could deploy them as a screen to absorb a couple of volleys which almost guarantees you getting the spearmen into the longbowmen intact.

Julian

[OldenTired]

Buy the cheapest LF your army allows and use them as a one rank deep screen, poor quality is best. You want either one of these events to occur, during the approach the LF break from the LB and rout leaving your HF/MF open to charge or better yet you have impact or offensive spear/pike that charge through LF.

Either way the light foot is wrecked so buy the cheapest, but a 2 pt javlinmen is a good exchange for 13 pt longbow man + stakes.

this works. had a play-test of LB versus an army with loads of LF. the LF screened the LB and just took pot-shots until the LB broke. they took losses in bases, but that was all because... they had other troops waiting behind the LF to swoop in when the LB disordered/fragged. this meant every cohesion test for taking hits from the LB was +1 (rear support), and +2 (IC within range). so occasionally they'd drop to disordered, then come back up next turn.

next time ill be forced to keep all the LB is a big tight bundle to stop small overlaps and "gang-ups" from BG of six LF.

[OhReally]

I was thinking from the standpoint of Scots spearmen and or french knights. heavy foot would take a minimum of 3 volleys before they made contact which seems really tough to get through. Would there be any point in dismounting knights if the LB don't have stakes?

also -- is there a poa for HF vs MF on impact, I can't remember, but I know there is a poa for mounted against MF?

There is a Cohesion test modifier for HF beating MF, but no POA bonus.

The bonus for mounted against MF is negated if the LB unit has down stakes (it's tucked away in the Glossary under Open Terrain for some reason).

I've charged Knights into LB before and it's really not that bad unless you don't disorder them as you are only -1 on Impact and even in melee. As almost all Knights are Superior just toss a leader with them and rerolling 1s and 2s should help balance it out. If you don't knock them down a level it kind of sucks as you have to bounce off and give them some more shooting.

[ethan]

I've charged Knights into LB before and it's really not that bad unless you don't disorder them as you are only -1 on Impact and even in melee. As almost all Knights are Superior just toss a leader with them and rerolling 1s and 2s should help balance it out. If you don't knock them down a level it kind of sucks as you have to bounce off and give them some more shooting.

Actually it should be pretty awful. The rear shooting from the longbows makes it effectively a two POA swing.

Each file of longbows behind stakes scores 1 1/3 hits with rear support. (2 dice on 4s, 1 dice on 5s)
Each knight scores 3/4 of a hit. (2 dice on 5s, re-rollings 1s)
So across a 4 wide frontage the "average" result is that the knight scores 3 hits and the longbows score 6 hits. So on average the knights will take a cohesion test at -2 and lose a base in the impact phase. The longbow have a 1 in 6 chance of losing a base. So even if they start out in good order and pass the morale check on the charge the Knights are fighting 6 dice to 8 in the melee phase (and they on average lose this 3 hits to 4 hits).


If the Knights havea general then each stand scores 5/6 of hit (2 dice on 5s, re-rollins 1 and 2)

so the average result to the leaderless longbowmn is still loss at 3 1/3 (20/6) hits to 6.

So it is pretty awful. Probably the most common result of superior knights charging longbows behind stakes is the knights are disrupted and lose a base and are 4MU away from the archers who just start shooting again.

[OhReally]

I've charged Knights into LB before and it's really not that bad unless you don't disorder them as you are only -1 on Impact and even in melee. As almost all Knights are Superior just toss a leader with them and rerolling 1s and 2s should help balance it out. If you don't knock them down a level it kind of sucks as you have to bounce off and give them some more shooting.

Actually it should be pretty awful. The rear shooting from the longbows makes it effectively a two POA swing.

Each file of longbows behind stakes scores 1 1/3 hits with rear support. (2 dice on 4s, 1 dice on 5s)
Each knight scores 3/4 of a hit. (2 dice on 5s, re-rollings 1s)
So across a 4 wide frontage the "average" result is that the knight scores 3 hits and the longbows score 6 hits. So on average the knights will take a cohesion test at -2 and lose a base in the impact phase. The longbow have a 1 in 6 chance of losing a base. So even if they start out in good order and pass the morale check on the charge the Knights are fighting 6 dice to 8 in the melee phase (and they on average lose this 3 hits to 4 hits).


If the Knights havea general then each stand scores 5/6 of hit (2 dice on 5s, re-rollins 1 and 2)

so the average result to the leaderless longbowmn is still loss at 3 1/3 (20/6) hits to 6.

So it is pretty awful. Probably the most common result of superior knights charging longbows behind stakes is the knights are disrupted and lose a base and are 4MU away from the archers who just start shooting again.

Yes but you are even in Melee rerolling 1s and 2s, and Knights should never attack unsupported anyhow.

[bahdahbum]

Another problem with LB is that all MF LB are also SW . I do not know why they are SW, but it makes them real thought opponents .

I wonder why CB are never rated SW, there must be a reason , but it makes them poor opponents , compared to LB .

[OldenTired]

Another problem with LB is that all MF LB are also SW . I do not know why they are SW, but it makes them real thought opponents .

I wonder why CB are never rated SW, there must be a reason , but it makes them poor opponents , compared to LB .

medieval burgundian. nary a sword in sight (except on the english allies).

makes them *very* afraid of heavy foot.

[bahdahbum]

Having a sword ( or an axe ) does not make ts swordsman . Training does . Greek hoplites had sword but were hardly really rained for it . LB on the other side seem to be better trained . Genoese CB are drilled, but lack the SW , unluckily for them , good for their opponents .

[OhReally]

Another problem with LB is that all MF LB are also SW . I do not know why they are SW, but it makes them real thought opponents .

I wonder why CB are never rated SW, there must be a reason , but it makes them poor opponents , compared to LB .

And CB need 5s shooting at LB who need 4s to hit them.

[carlos]

Greek hoplites had sword but were hardly really rained for it . LB on the other side seem to be better trained .

The rules explicitly say that the Off/Def Spearmen PoAs include the use of swords in close combat once the spears have been dropped or entangled.