How to package Nikephorian Byzantines?

[khurasan_miniatures]

Hello, I have just received my first shipment of the lovely Nikephorian Byzantines (or whatever they are called in FoG), horse and foot, and would love to have them up for sale corresponding with the release of DECLINE AND FALL, but it's not out yet, so I can't! Worse it won't be released in the states til near the end of the month!

Here's what I've had made, and if anyone can suggest unit sizes and comps that would be lovely.

1)Kataphractoi Klibanophoroi (two maceman poses, one lancer pose, archer pose available too) -- I had these made to make DBx DBEs with 3 macers, 2 lancers and an archer. Still viable?

2) Elite kavalarioi (archer pose available too)

3) Line kavalarioi (archer pose available too)

For all of the above, archers were made so one may put one archer on each base as per DBx

4) Spearmen and spear unit archers (four poses of spearmen, four of archers)

5) Menavlatoi (two poses)

6) Akontistai (two poses)

7) Skirmishing archers (two poses, equipment is very different from spear unit archers)

Skirmishing slingers (two poses)

9) General, musician, and emperor

10) Seven tailed flag (for army wing command -- it can be trimmed down to make a smaller unit flag too) which is a conversion for a lancer figure

11) Sacred icon bearer (square flag on pole)

12) Infantry commander

13) Cavalry commander

I can of course make units for those skirmishing archer and lancer units which were supposed to function as advanced guards and outflankers.

Any advice on how to package these fellows greatly appreciated!

All the best,
http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

[khurasan_miniatures]

Oh no, I forgot:

1) Varangian spearmen in Byzantine service (guards, etc)

2) Varangian axemen in Byzantine service (two handed axes)

[daleivan]

I did not know you were planning on releasing a range of these. Most excellent. My best friend and principal FoG opponent Mark Sieber will be most pleased--he has a Nikephorian army which no doubt could use some reinforcing

Cheers,

Dale

[MarkSieber]

Just as my 'pile of shame' of unpainted lead was beginning to diminish! A sucker for a nice figure, I am.

[daleivan]

Just as my 'pile of shame' of unpainted lead was beginning to diminish! A sucker for a nice figure, I am.

At least in your hands a pile of shame becomes an army of pride once your figures are painted

Dale

[expendablecinc]

I have the book and below is my completely legal Nikephorian army list.
Nice to see you making menavlatoi. No-one else does.

Emperor IC - - - - - - CinC 1
Sycophants TC - - - - - - - 2
- - - - - - - -
Troop Type code Armour Qual Un/DR range impact mellee
Cavalry Cv Arm Avg Dr - Lance Sw - 6
Cavalry Cv Arm Avg Dr - Lance Sw - 4
Varangian Guard HF HvArm Elite Dr - OSpear Spear - 6
Other Cavalry Cv Prot Avg Dr Bow - Sw - 4
Spearmen HF Prot Avg Dr - DSpear Spear - 4
Support w/Bow MF Prot Avg Dr Bow - - - 4
Spearmen HF Prot Avg Dr - DSpear Spear - 4
Support w/Bow MF Prot Avg Dr Bow - - - 4
Skirmishing Bw LF UnProt Avg Dr Bow - - - 6
Skirmishing Bw LF UnProt Avg Dr Bow - - - 6
Javelinmen LF UnProt Avg Dr Jav LtSp - - 6
Javelinmen LF UnProt Avg Dr Jav LtSp - - 6
Slingers LF UnProt Avg Dr Sling - - - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4

[daleivan]

I have the book and below is my completely legal Nikephorian army list.
Nice to see you making menavlatoi. No-one else does.

Emperor IC - - - - - - CinC 1
Sycophants TC - - - - - - - 2
- - - - - - - -
Troop Type code Armour Qual Un/DR range impact mellee
Cavalry Cv Arm Avg Dr - Lance Sw - 6
Cavalry Cv Arm Avg Dr - Lance Sw - 4
Varangian Guard HF HvArm Elite Dr - OSpear Spear - 6
Other Cavalry Cv Prot Avg Dr Bow - Sw - 4
Spearmen HF Prot Avg Dr - DSpear Spear - 4
Support w/Bow MF Prot Avg Dr Bow - - - 4
Spearmen HF Prot Avg Dr - DSpear Spear - 4
Support w/Bow MF Prot Avg Dr Bow - - - 4
Skirmishing Bw LF UnProt Avg Dr Bow - - - 6
Skirmishing Bw LF UnProt Avg Dr Bow - - - 6
Javelinmen LF UnProt Avg Dr Jav LtSp - - 6
Javelinmen LF UnProt Avg Dr Jav LtSp - - 6
Slingers LF UnProt Avg Dr Sling - - - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4
Cuman mercs LH UnProt Avg UnDr Bow - Sw - 4

Interesting list. The Varangian guard will be nasty on the table. I like including three BGs of Cuman LH. Good choice IMHO

Looking forward to getting my copy of the new book around the end of this month.

Cheers,

Dale

[khurasan_miniatures]

Thanks. I don't understand that list. Is that unit of heavy archers separate from the lancers? Also all the foreign horse archers are from the nikephorian period? Is this list from the latter 11th C?

Do the nikephorian lancers ever have archers in them? Are they better packaged as 4 bases, or 6?

[expendablecinc]

Thanks. I don't understand that list. Is that unit of heavy archers separate from the lancers? Also all the foreign horse archers are from the nikephorian period? Is this list from the latter 11th C?

Do the nikephorian lancers ever have archers in them? Are they better packaged as 4 bases, or 6?

My list is later so the Byzantine line cavg are lancers with no missile capability. I havent played them out yet but generally I'd go for Bgs of 6 for 3 deep lancers. Alterhtatively if the foot bear the brunt of enemy charges perhaps lurking drilled lancers will be good for flankarama? I dont know really.

The Bow armed cav are the flankers probably representing the the sundry one trick lighter troops from the tactica or sme predecessor?
Anthony

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks. I don't understand that list. Is that unit of heavy archers separate from the lancers? Also all the foreign horse archers are from the nikephorian period? Is this list from the latter 11th C?

Do the nikephorian lancers ever have archers in them? Are they better packaged as 4 bases, or 6?

The FoG Nikephorian list covers the periods of the DBM Nikephorian list and the DBM Konstantinian list. The list above is from the later period.

In the earlier period (before 1042) most of the cavalry are Bow*, Lancers, Swordsmen. After 1042, only a few of these are allowed, the rest being downgraded to Lancers, Swordsmen.

In both periods, there are some Flankers graded as Protected. Bow, Swordsmen.

Cumans etc are only allowed after 1042, as are Varangian guardsmen. Other Rus and Varangian mercenaries are only allowed before 1042.

[khurasan_miniatures]

Sorry for the delay in response -- thanks for the answers.

Is it safe to say that the bow* lance units are best run in bgs of 4 so that a unit pack could have 8 lancers and 4 bowmen?

And that the all-lance later units work best in 6 bases so 18 lancers (actually 17 plus a leader)?

How about spear units of 8 bases, so 1 leader, 15 spears, and 16 heavy bows (the chaps with two bows, two quivers, small shield, and fabric armour)?

[IanB3406]

Are the Spear unit One rank of spear with a second rank of Bow?

I hate this troop type ----haven't seen them played but I expect they are poop on the table.

[nikgaukroger]

Sorry for the delay in response -- thanks for the answers.

Is it safe to say that the bow* lance units are best run in bgs of 4 so that a unit pack could have 8 lancers and 4 bowmen?

And that the all-lance later units work best in 6 bases so 18 lancers (actually 17 plus a leader)?

Alas it is still rather at the no real consensus stage on BG size, especially for armies in books that have not yet been released. (Well actually only alas for people looking for a definite answer, in terms of being interesting for players it is a good thing ).

I have seen, for example, Lancer type BGs run as both 4s and 6s successfully - and indeed unsuccessfully

Bugger all use to you of course

[nikgaukroger]

Are the Spear unit One rank of spear with a second rank of Bow?

I hate this troop type ----haven't seen them played but I expect they are poop on the table.

They are half spearmen and half bowmen - how you deploy them is up to you - BG size is 6-8 bases.

IMO not at all bad against period opponents - not so good outside that though ...

[khurasan_miniatures]

They are half spearmen and half bowmen - how you deploy them is up to you - BG size is 6-8 bases.

IMO not at all bad against period opponents - not so good outside that though ...

Are they able to deploy with bows in front, spears behind, then switch ranks when the enemy is close?

[philqw78]

Are they able to deploy with bows in front, spears behind, then switch ranks when the enemy is close?

No, but this is pointless as they shoot at full effect from second rank, being the first shooting rank.

[khurasan_miniatures]

Are they able to deploy with bows in front, spears behind, then switch ranks when the enemy is close?

No, but this is pointless as they shoot at full effect from second rank, being the first shooting rank.

Ah.

So, no thoughts on how to actually package these fellows? I had considered making them available in unit packs, but might just skip it.

Is the starter army posted anywhere? That might be a good alternative ....

[philqw78]

Do them the same as the swedes, mashed with some butter, or alternately, 12 Spear to 9 Bow.

[Redpossum]

Do them the same as the swedes, mashed with some butter, or alternately, 12 Spear to 9 Bow.

Phil is making a vegetable joke here.

A "swede" is a root vegetable like a turnip, and actually very damn good boiled and mashed up with some butter and a little salt & pepper

[khurasan_miniatures]

Do them the same as the swedes, mashed with some butter, or alternately, 12 Spear to 9 Bow.

As they can also be 4 archers to a base, and as that's what they are in the other game, I think I will package them as 8s.

Or, truth be told, it might be better to just let the gamer decide, and package the archers in packs of 12, so that you get 4 elements of 3, or 3 elements of 4 ....

Think it will look rather like this:

1) Katafract fully armoured cavalry on fully armoured horses, with maces (x4)
2) Katafract fully armoured cavalry on fully armoured horses, with lances (x4)
3) Elite heavy cavalry lancers x4
4) Line heavy cavalry lancers x4
5) Armoured horse archers x4
6) Cavalry commanders x2 (could be used as troop commander too)
7) Spearmen with textile armour x12
8) Spear unit archers with textile armour, two bows, two quivers, light shield x12
9) Skirmishing archers (one quiver, 1 bow, no textile armour) x 4
10) Akontistai (skirmishing or closefighting Anatolian/Russ javelinmen in textile armour) x4
11) Skirmishing Slingers x4
12) Menavlatoi (picked spearmen with shorter extra-heavy spear, textile armor, small shield) x6
13) Infantry leader (x2)
14) Varangian infantry with mix of Norse and Byzantine armour and shields, long spear x8
15) Varangian infantry with mix of Norse and Byzantine armour and shields, Danish axe x4
16) Emperor, icon relic (square banner) and musician (x3)
17) General and musician (x2)
18) Flags (conversion piece for any lancer's spear -- flag with seven tails, can be cut down to smaller flag) x2

Now if only I could find the time to ink them up to post them on the website!