A I

wooman99 · Post by **wooman99** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:38 am

Well after playing the grand campaign for the 5th time your AI needs alot work.Yes i know the problem
with the AI being passive is being worked on.So ive been france and the things i see the AI do is a real joke!
England AI ha! what a waste,buys nothing but ships and moves them every turn looking for what i dont know
since all my ships were sunk after the second turn.I can see it going after the convoyes but why does it need to buy
20 to 30 ships what a joke.
Ok it does buy some HVY cav about 1808 but u need more than that.I have yet to see any A I buy arty.
Now 1 game i had 3 ships of the line i was able to save.After a year or so i sent them
after his convoys.[england as i said ive been french because of the passive AI problem]With just 3 ships ive been sunking english convoys because the A I PROTECTS THE CONVOYS by surrounding it with ships.But if i get 1 ship in front of it the convoy it cant move because im in front of it and the english has ships behine it and on the sides so lol the convoy is stuck!.BUT THE BEST PART IS IM OUT # BUY SHIPS BUT I DONT GET ATTACKED!

I mean hell i got 8 english ships around me and not 1 of em attacks!
So i sink the convoy and they just leave waving goodby too me singing songs i guess lol!

So maybe the passive AI problem is causing all of this, i dont know i just play games i dont know what makes em work lol!

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am

Each scenario has its own AI so can you tell us which scenario each problem occured in or are they all from 1805. Can you tell as at what point the problems ocured as the AI changes tactics over time. If you can list the problems as bullet points its easier for us to deal with as well - thanks!

wooman99 · Post by **wooman99** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:10 pm

Its the 1805 grand campiagn. I have not seen any problems with the others and the AI seems too put up a good fight
in them.But the 1805 campaign is the meat of the game and needs some work on the AI. Like i said before it might be
because of the passive AI PROBLEM. It is strange that ive not seen england or russia buy arty.
I really want to play against a good AI because my work hours make it almost impossible to play against a real person.

I like this game alot but this passive AI problem is killing the 1805 grand campaign.
The other campaigns are good but short! LONG LIVE THE LITTLE GUY LOL!

wooman99 · Post by **wooman99** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:31 pm

Can you tell as at what point the problems ocured as the AI changes tactics over time. If you can list the problems as bullet points its easier for us to deal with as well - thanks!

Well ive yet to see the AI change tactics. Its pretty much been the same way for 5 games now.[1805 grand campaign]
Ive been playing the last 3 games with minnor allie advantage. My last game i had the allies on moderate.
And i wont play allie cause france just sits there after it knocks austria out of the game. Sits there and buys nothing but line inf.

Hey if any1 has seen something else in the 1805 campaign please speak up!

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:42 pm

Thanks for the feedback on the navy. Yes, there is a good feedback list now which will be used for the patch so the 1805 will be given a significant face lift soon

taggan · Post by **taggan** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:25 am

iainmcneil wrote:Each scenario has its own AI so can you tell us which scenario each problem occured in or are they all from 1805. Can you tell as at what point the problems ocured as the AI changes tactics over time. If you can list the problems as bullet points its easier for us to deal with as well - thanks!

Give it a break, u know as well as we do that the campaign is a joke, ya ya sorry have to fix this and have to fix that, but its still ridiculous, $50.00 for a broken game and the campaign, the heart and sole of the game is a waste of time untill the patch comes out.

And whats with the windows and I'm not talking about the big white blotchy squares that occur every game turn, I'm talking about the silly this is a vassal, leave some men bla bla bla, every single time. Don't blame that on scripting, you obviously rushed to get this out and did a sloppy job no matter what your fan boys who drewl over this have to say.

taggan · Post by **taggan** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:27 am

patch????????????

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:08 am

For those who seek a greater challenge, turn Fog of War and Advanced Weather on. As an alternative turn on At Random Science Research, although I like managing it myself.
And change the Advantage setting in favour of the AI.

The game is so much more fun, scouting will also be much more important. Have fun!

Patches are not build in a day and have to be tested first, but Johan always have given splendid support on his games so far, so just try to be a bit patient and stay polite please.

Tim aka LZ

taggan · Post by **taggan** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:07 am

lordzimoa wrote:For those who seek a greater challenge, turn Fog of War and Advanced Weather on. As an alternative turn on At Random Science Research, although I like managing it myself.
And change the Advantage setting in favour of the AI.

The game is so much more fun, scouting will also be much more important. Have fun!

Patches are not build in a day and have to be tested first, but Johan always have given splendid support on his games so far, so just try to be a bit patient and stay polite please.

Tim aka LZ

I apologize for being rude, but your just spinning, patches are not built in a day, I understand, but it almost seems the ai scripting in this game was. If it was meant for pbem, just say so. Don't try and bs the bser, like those pros over at Matrix. My rude comment above pertains to the campaign, sorry, your response doesn't cut it. I was using fog of war, and advanced weather and coalition on max! You could add another 20 difficulty options and it doesn't mean a thing. What difference does it make if I'm out numbered 5 to one and can still systematically destroy inf. division and cavalry brigade one by one because their too stupid to know that I'm attacking and just sit there and do nothing, for sake, they don't even fire at me! (I'm referring to Russia). And what's with the great British Navy? I chop a frigate down to 4 points at Brest and he retreats out of sight ne towards the Thames, (I'm thinking maybe the British are smarter than the Russians) only to drop anchor off of Amsterdam 10 turns later after passing 3 British ports and yup, he's still a 4. Ridiculous! I am not here to troll, I love this game, the concept, capabilities, presentation and simplicity are perfect for both solo and mail. Unlike Universallis et al, you don't have to be a math/stats geek to play

. But for single player mode? You know as well as I do, and that fact alone pisses me off. This will be my last complaint at least until the patch...

Oh, and one last thing. The other scenerios, (all of them), why so short? Run out of time?

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:08 am

If you understood game development you'd know that a small tweak can have unforseen effects

That's what happened here. A small tweak near the end had huge effects on the AI that occur late on in scenarios and was not spottted.

Ideally it would have been tested more thoroughly but each play through takes many hours so it's not like making a racing game. Unfortunately this bug got missed. Don't try and read more in to it. This game has been in development for over a year with around 10 people involved.

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:44 pm

Oh, and one last thing. The other scenerios, (all of them), why so short? Run out of time?

No they were designed like that on purpose, mainly for MP variation, to have some shorter scenario`s for the players to play against eachother. Or for SP players who like some faster and smaller scenario games, some are pretty hard to accomplish in the assigned turns, like in Russia 1812 you have only 19 turns to get the Czar on its knees. The main campaign 1805-1814 is the only long one, 169 turns.

Tim

Toby42 · Post by **Toby42** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:59 pm

The scenario sizes sound right for me. The subject matter is spot on. The scenario's cover the right stuff. The only reason that I have not purchased is because of the apparent problems with the AI and the fact that you have to buy leaders instead of them showing up as they did historically....

taggan · Post by **taggan** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:59 am

iainmcneil wrote:If you understood game development you'd know that a small tweak can have unforseen effects That's what happened here. A small tweak near the end had huge effects on the AI that occur late on in scenarios and was not spottted.

Ideally it would have been tested more thoroughly but each play through takes many hours so it's not like making a racing game. Unfortunately this bug got missed. Don't try and read more in to it. This game has been in development for over a year with around 10 people involved.

More spin, what your telling us is you released a broken game. I couldn't care less about your "game developement". I would assume the AI would be marginally working when it was released. It isn't, and I'm supposed to be patient, I got it. I guess I should appologize again for not understanding developement, this time.

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:48 am

The game covers 1805-1815, has 8 scenarios with 2 sides and 7 difficulty levels. From what we heard so far game has practically no stability problems, works well in multiplayer, is balanced, has interesting tactical scenarios but has glitches with the AI in the 1805 scenario.

If you have any specific questions I will answer them. At this stage the only construtive questions are when the patch is rdy and the simple answer is "soon".

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:18 pm

The problem is games like this have a small audience. Thats a fact of life. That means there is not much revenue to be made from them and budgets are small. That means there is no professional testing team involved and sometimes issues are missed. This AI issue effects games that are well under way so takes hours of gameplay to discover. It's not an obvious crash, or stupid mistake. It's a hidden issue that did not get spotted in the final version. Is it annoying - of course it is, but we're fixing it as quickly as possible.

What we don't accept is the implication that the game is broken, incomplete or rushed or that we've set out to con anyone in anyway. It's completely unfounded and untrue.

We'll fix it so plese be patient and bear with us. An initial patch is being prepared for internal testing. We apologise for any inconvenience.

Ryben · Post by **Ryben** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:57 am

We understand that you may have an small budget and few resources to make a exaushtive testing of the game but...

...one thing is failing to spot that placing a certain type of unit in a remote city in the far edge of the map causes some kind of erratic behaviour.

...other one is watching unrepaired ships sailing the atlantic and AI making strange movements, not attacking or ignoring nearby enemy forces. That kind of things are spotted from turn 1, no need to test 169 turns to notice them. And not just in 1805 campaign.

In any case, we´ll be patient and wait for that patch.

xriz · Post by **xriz** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:36 pm

I've actually worked for a small computer game company here in LA, Prolific Publishing, as a game tester and AI is the hardest thing in a game to get right. It’s like building a house of cards: if everything placed right it looks great, one bad placement and the whole thing collapses.

AI for these kinds of games are always going to be week if you ask me, I don’t think I’ve played an AI that I couldn’t find some loop hole were you could always take advantage of it. Most AI’s win because developers just give it more of everything and you just get over whelmed.

A game like this is really best played against other players; I didn’t buy it to play against the AI.

Espejo · Post by **Espejo** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:13 am

Sure but good AIs can be done......

Stardock Galactic Civ 2...for example is brillant

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SC2 + WAW und PDE at least in the first games the AI is kind of a challenge or plays the same game ...

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The old Civ Games and Alpha Centauri... Ai cheats but at least plays the game

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Wesnoth free Hex field strategy ...Hey the AI plays quite nicely ...not great but quite well

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I will wait for the patch as I still have hopes for Napoleon. What I wonder ? Does the game play differently on different computers?

Because sometimes is sounds like the AI at least tries to do something or even plays well ... in other games the units are really just sitting around and are getting slaugthered..

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Perhaps its hard but right now for me the AI acts below : PG1 and Civ1 ..

OK, I know you are trying to fix it. Nevertheless, I hope that the AI although plays some kind of long term strategies and not only throws units mindlessly on the human player.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:11 am

You can make a game appear to have good AI if the structure is set up in a particular way. This makes it easier for sci fi and fantasy games to have good AI. People dot have expectations and a historical framework they are trying to repeat. When you have a historical setting its a lot harder as you have to make the AI good, whilst also making it behave in a way that people feel is realistic and all those events that add the flavour of the period.

In a sci fi game, if you find that the initial war against Austria gives the AI issues, you just drop it out and find something the AI can deal with

Vassals causing a problem - we don't need them. The russo-german pact to split Poland is hard to create in game - lets not do it and add some generic feature the AI can deal with in a formulaic way rather than needing knowledge scripted in to it. You see the point?

However, as discussed Johan is working hard to resolve this.