LF Charging Troops in Mixed Terrain

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:58 am

in other words, you can keep a toe in terrain to avoid being charged by lights?

WOW! FoG is the opposite of DBM!

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:00 am

rogerg wrote:The argument against that is no base would be in contact with a straight ahead move because the contact would be illegal. The wheel brings in more.

True - I was forgetting what this discussion is actually about

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:28 pm

OldenTired wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:Actually your illustrated wheel is illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases fighting than you would have had if you hadn't wheeled - wheeling gives you 2 fighting straight forward (or a lesser wheel) would give you 3
in other words, you can keep a toe in terrain to avoid being charged by lights?

Don't you mean a toe in the clear? Or am I confused again? (worse than usual...)

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:48 pm

LOL Possum you and I think alike. When I read that I was like

. It was like Si was responding where he adds the bit at the end to make you think

.

Brian

possum wrote:
OldenTired wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:Actually your illustrated wheel is illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases fighting than you would have had if you hadn't wheeled - wheeling gives you 2 fighting straight forward (or a lesser wheel) would give you 3
in other words, you can keep a toe in terrain to avoid being charged by lights?
Don't you mean a toe in the clear? Or am I confused again? (worse than usual...)

shall · Post by **shall** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:19 pm

Well I was going to answer and add a bit at the end to make you think, but now I am getting all self-conscious

Now should I just answer, do nothing, or just do an answer without the thought provoking bit?

Si

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:28 pm

possum wrote:
OldenTired wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:Actually your illustrated wheel is illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases fighting than you would have had if you hadn't wheeled - wheeling gives you 2 fighting straight forward (or a lesser wheel) would give you 3
in other words, you can keep a toe in terrain to avoid being charged by lights?
Don't you mean a toe in the clear? Or am I confused again? (worse than usual...)

heh.

too true.must remember. "all disrupted units can hide from heavies in rough, and from lights in rough."

note to self: always bring mediums.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:05 pm

Ah comon Si, don't keep us waiting. To expands one mind is always a good thing.

Brian

shall wrote:Well I was going to answer and add a bit at the end to make you think, but now I am getting all self-conscious

Now should I just answer, do nothing, or just do an answer without the thought provoking bit?

Si

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:46 pm

or just do an answer without the thought provoking bit?

Just do the thought provoking bit and no answer, that would be better than my answer with no thought bit.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:24 pm

I think you should say something really cryptic, to preserve your mystique.

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mewed..."

or

"Well, Richard tried that on me once in the last round of a major tourney, but as he was wearing his underwear on his head at the time, it didn't work very well."

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:39 am

possum wrote:I think you should say something really cryptic, to preserve your mystique.

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mewed..."

Hey Possum what page is this quote from, I must have missed it. Sounds very Si

Brian

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:23 am

BrianC wrote:
possum wrote:I think you should say something really cryptic, to preserve your mystique.

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mewed..."
Hey Possum what page is this quote from, I must have missed it. Sounds very Si

Brian

Nah, it's The Bard.

The Scottish Play (no, I will not name it, even in print!)

Act IV, Scene I, the first line.

Ol' Will had a rather twisted view of witches, I fear.

shall · Post by **shall** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:36 am

I like a challenge and will see if I can come up with a posting over the weekend with something for everyone!

Si

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:31 am

possum wrote:
Nah, it's The Bard.

The Scottish Play (no, I will not name it, even in print!)

Macbeth .

Over to you ...

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:38 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
possum wrote:
Nah, it's The Bard.

The Scottish Play (no, I will not name it, even in print!)

Macbeth .

Over to you ...

Aye, that's the one. But most actors are too superstitious to even call it by name, given the play's centuries-long reputation for hideous bad luck. OTOH, it's clearly one of the crown jewels of the English language, so any thespian has serious mixed feelings about it.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:55 pm

I was hoping for the Blackadder 3 response - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqzcC_jf_0

Missed opposrtunity

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:25 pm

Don't have my rules with me but I'm sure that when you charge, you must contact the enemy with something, at which point you stop and THEN step forward.

Stepping forward is normally compulsory. I have a feeling that skirmishers can refrain from stepping forward into troops they are not allowed to charge, but I'm not certain about this.

You cannot declare a charge, move and stop before contact, THEN step forward to make contact with pemitted targets.

A base (that would be) contacted by a step forward counts as a target of the charge.

If umpiring (subject to checking the rules) I would allow LF to charge if each and every base contacted, including by stepping forward, was not entirely in the open. I would allow a wheel to avoid contacting bases that are not allowed to be charged. Other bases of the target BG not contacted by the charge could be in the open.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:16 am

Let's see if I can clarify this somewhat.....

1) The step forwards is compulsary - There is NO exception - even if it would mean skirmishers hitting non-slirmishers in the open.

2) That being said - This means that you can't declare a charge with skirmishers against non-skirmishers if any of the enemy bases are in the open - You MUST add the step forwards when determining this.

3) It you can wheel to avoid hitting the bases in the open then you may do so.

4) You can't make this wheel if you would hit less bases than you would if you charged straight ahead - even if the charge straight ahead is into a base that you can't legally contact.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:06 pm

terrys wrote: 4) You can't make this wheel if you would hit less bases than you would if you charged straight ahead - even if the charge straight ahead is into a base that you can't legally contact.

I disagree. The part after the hyphen is not present in the rulebook, and nothing I can find in the rule book supports this. How is this illegal move performed? Is it corrected so you contact only those you can legally contact - and thus you only count as contacting those you can legally contact. Or do you completely ignore the fact it is a illegal move and count as contacting all bases you can.
How does this alter charges without orders - do they have to charge all bases, or only all bases they can legally contact. If they can't contact all bases do they go for those closest to straight ahead they can legally contact, or those closest to straight ahead they can contact ignoring legality.
When determining what you can contact which forms of illegality do you ignore - hitting the first 2 ranks in the flank with a non flank charge when they are in combat? passing through friendly bases?

I think your view creates more problems than it solves.
The alternative is to say that in this case a charge without a wheel will hit 0 bases, as if you don't wheel the charge can't occur and thus will be cancelled.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:09 pm

terrys wrote:Let's see if I can clarify this somewhat.....

1) The step forwards is compulsary - There is NO exception - even if it would mean skirmishers hitting non-slirmishers in the open.

Page 55:

Skirmishers need not step forward into contact with an enemy battlegroup of non-skirmishers that they otherwise would not contact.

However, the step forward into other bases of a BG that you have already contacted would be compulsory.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:27 pm

I disagree. The part after the hyphen is not present in the rulebook, and nothing I can find in the rule book supports this. How is this illegal move performed? Is it corrected so you contact only those you can legally contact - and thus you only count as contacting those you can legally contact. Or do you completely ignore the fact it is a illegal move and count as contacting all bases you can.

There is no hyphen in the rules because is was my interpretation - however.......
I've re-read the rules and found that I've made an error - I didn't spot one important rule....

1) (change) The step forwards is NOT compulsary for skirmishers into non-skirmishers.
I missed the following rule:
Skirmishers need not step forward into contact with an enemy battle group of non-skirmishers
that they otherwise would not contact.

2) That being said - This means that you can't declare a charge with skirmishers against non-skirmishers if any of the enemy bases are in the open. You cannot stop the ones that would hit bases in the open and step forwards the rest.
Since you can't step forwards until the first base makes legal contact.

3) If you can wheel to avoid hitting the bases in the open then you may do so.

4) (change) Since you are not elegible to charge straight ahead i.e. you'd hot 0 bases - Then any wheel into contact would be allowed.

How does this alter charges without orders - do they have to charge all bases, or only all bases they can legally contact. If they can't contact all bases do they go for those closest to straight ahead they can legally contact, or those closest to straight ahead they can contact ignoring legality.

Which bases can't shock troops legally contact? (other than those they can't reach?)

When determining what you can contact which forms of illegality do you ignore - hitting the first 2 ranks in the flank with a non flank charge when they are in combat? passing through friendly bases?

Don't confuse legal charge declarations with legal contact.
for example: You can contact the flank edge of a base in frontal contact, but only by stepping forwards after contacting its front corner. You can't declare the charge against this edge.

I think your view creates more problems than it solves.
The alternative is to say that in this case a charge without a wheel will hit 0 bases, as if you don't wheel the charge can't occur and thus will be cancelled.

I think you're right - because I missed the relevent rule on skirmishers not having to step forwards.

I think the above translation is now correct, however, I do have some misgivings about possible misuse of the rule - i.e. players being able to pick out a juicy target by wheeling and not having to step forwards into a heavier target.
but feel free to pick holes in it.......