Reinassance FoG

[generalinvierno]

Good Afternoon from Spain

We are going to play a couple of battles of the 1500,s, Pinkie and Malta (Il Gran Socorsso), we´ll try to play with Fog (we used to play DBR, Warfage in the Age of Discovery and Tercios); with some changes.

- Pikes aren´t shock troops
- Tercios are mixed BG, (4-6 Arquebus, 4-6 Pike); in Malta each Tercio (Londoño, Bracamonte y Sande) had 2.000 men.
- Arquebus, range 6 MU,s; short range 4 MU,s. + PoA vs Cv, Kn, MF and HF (armoured don´t count).
- Musket (only in LF BG); short range 6 MU,s.

We need a lot of help, and ideas.

Thanks

[Smackyderm]

Are those ranges in the ballpark for firearms of the time? They seem a bit long to me, but I'm no expert.

[MarkSieber]

I'd lose the cohesion mods for gunpowder, folks were used to it by then. Swiss pike: still shock. Maybe Landsknechts, too.

[sagji]

- Pikes aren´t shock troops

Why do you think this?

- Tercios are mixed BG, (4-6 Arquebus, 4-6 Pike); in Malta each Tercio (Londoño, Bracamonte y Sande) had 2.000 men.

In this period pike should be 4 deep - so I suggest 4 Arquebus and 4 pike. Plus an extra rule allowing the pike to be 2 ranks deeper than the rest of the BG.

- Arquebus, range 6 MU,s; short range 4 MU,s. + PoA vs Cv, Kn, MF and HF (armoured don´t count).

This is way out - Arquebus should have 1/2 the range of bow so 3 / 2. I am also not convinced the + is appropriate, but they may struggle to do enough hits to have an effect - even with the + as they need 3 hits from 3 dice at close range.

- Musket (only in LF BG); short range 6 MU,s.

Again this has been inflated - I would go for 6 / 4

[generalinvierno]

I'd lose the cohesion mods for gunpowder, folks were used to it by then.

+1, it´s a good`point.

[generalinvierno]

- Pikes aren´t shock troops

Why do you think this?

Spanish infantry didn´t charge without orders, maybe a mutinee troop, but it´ll be in S. XVII.
Swiss? perhaps, like in the Battle of Novara, but I don´t know a lot of swiss pike.

I´ll see the ranges again.
And the PoA,s?

[sagji]

- Pikes aren´t shock troops

Why do you think this?

Spanish infantry didn´t charge without orders, maybe a mutinee troop, but it´ll be in S. XVII.
Swiss? perhaps, like in the Battle of Novara, but I don´t know a lot of swiss pike.

I think it needs a little bit more than this - you need to look if the Spanish infantary was in a situation where FoG would make a test to charge without orders and (frequently) didn't charge. It may also be helpfull to look at the opposite effect - were there cases where the Spanish infantry refused to charge? If the Spanish infantry aren't shock troups then there is the chance that if they get shot up on the way in that they will refuse to charge.

If the Spanish aren't shock troups then are they pike, or should they be defensive spear? Just becasue they have a very long spear doesn't make them pike.

If you do think they should be non-shock, and still be pike, then I would create a new capability "defensive pike"

And the PoA,s?

Arquebus and Musket weren't super weapons. The arquebus was preferred over the bow becasue it required little skill to use, its effect was not dependant on the strength of the user, it was cheap to produce in numbers, and more amunition could be carried - all of these offset some major dissadvantages, a shorter range and a much lower rate of fire.
Thus I would be inclined to have them with no PoAs.
If you think they need a boost I would be more inclined to look at the number of dice rather than giving them a +.

In early playtests crossbows got + against armoured targets, and - against unprotected targets but had less dice than bow. This didn't work in practice because the xbow generaly didn't have enought dice to be capable of getting the hits required to have an effect.
If a Tercio is 4 pike and 4 arquebus, and arquebus get the same dice as bow, then it gets 3 dice at close range and needs 3 hits to have any effect on a similar formation.

[generalinvierno]

Hello

Spanish infantry won the fight with arquebus, like other armies. The shock of pikes were a rare situation. They didn´t attack like a macedonian phalanx, first, the arquebusiers softed the enemy. But the spanish pike was very aggressive in combat. Perhaps defensive pike is a ggod idea, but i think that the renaissence warfare was a affaire "more regular" than impact foot/pike of other ages.

Hombres de Armas (Gendarmes), Heavy Cavalry, were shock troops, i think, like FoG design.

Arquebus was a rate of fire greater than xbow, but less than bow. And it penetrated more than bow and xbow. The range was inferior, of course. Maybe 4/3, and musket 6/4?

Thanks everybody.