To IainMcNeil: to help address Mac issues…

[enric]

To help address Mac issues we've set up a new help desk.

For all Mac issues please contact support@vpltd.com. The Mac version was developed by a different company and only they can support you properly, which is why we've struggled to answer your questions having to go back to them on each query. This will help us to help you as quickly as possible. Thanks!

Sorry Ian, but I doubt this is the correct way to deal with these issues.

1) How can I know if the issue is only in the Mac version?
2) The system of opening a ticket at Virtual Programing and not in the forum, means that other users don't are able to follow these issues.
3) When detecting any anomaly, people are used to look at the forum to see if other people also found it, and maybe resolved.
4) Why don't allow Virtual Programing to deal with the issues directly in the forum? This will help other people don't ask for the same thing.
5) Are VP also dealing with the server issues? I opened two matches agains myself (PzC allows this) but then, PzC don't allow to play it. Now I have two games opened in the MP list but if I try to play any one of them PzC crashes and, I can't "claim" the games as it's my player turn. It's the Mac Version? The PC has the same issue? Maybe is the server?...
6) Finally, I thing either VP or Slith. should take a look at the issues already posted in the forum and add them to the tickets list, don't delegate the users, that already posted there, to create a ticket.

[IainMcNeil]

Hi Enric,

I'm not entirely happy either but VP say this is the only way they can deal with support unfortunately. We asked them to be on the forums but they say they have too many games to do that. We forced them to add this email as an option, which did not exist before then. Previously people had to set up an account in their system to report any issues and we said that was unacceptable. At this point we are trying to make the best of it. They are a porting house and say the only way they can cover all their games is via a help desk.

VP have been referred to all issue reported on the forum before the helpdesk was setup but you cant add issues to the helpdesk unless you are the reporter. It needs the reporters email address. It's not perfect but its the best we could agree with them.

This is the only way Mac versions are going to be possible. I'm not convinced it works so we're trialing it for a few games and then will decide if we keep doing it. At the moment it looks very likely that we will drop Mac as a platform, as the work required to do it, the time to support it and the sales generated just don't make sense.

Thanks

[enric]

At the moment it looks very likely that we will drop Mac as a platform, as the work required to do it, the time to support it and the sales generated just don't make sense.

I was at the beta for iPad, when the iPad and Mac version were announced to be released soon, but the Mac version was delayed and delayed, and so the interest of people goes away, also mine.
Releasing a little version of a games that has more than 5-6 years, it's not a way to make grow that platform.

iOs 11 is released, 32 bits apps will not run, what will happens to BA series?, is PzC 64 bits?

[IainMcNeil]

We've had games launch with Mac day 1 and it doesn't really make much difference to sales and adds a lot of overhead in preparing patches and testing, so reduces the quality or progress of the game as a whole. It doesn't make sense to do it Day 1 for this reason and its looking like it doesn't make sense to add them when patches are no longer needed as it still creates a bunch of work

As for iOS, currently, Pike & Shot and Battle Academy are based on the Stubb engine which is 32 bit. Panzer Corps & Armageddon are 64 bit. To update the Stubb engine to 64 bit requires significant engine level rewrites. It would take man months of developer time per game to adapt and test the new versions. If it was a task we could outsource we’d even do that, but unfortunately, it's really only a task the original engine team can do in any reasonable time frame and they are working on the next generation of engine called Archon. This engine is the basis for 5 upcoming games by 5 different developers and we can’t take the team off of that work and delay those games because it would financially seriously harm all 5 developers and potentially put them out of business.

On Quadriga, the developer is deep in the production of their latest game and as a 1 man team, if he takes time out to adapt Quadriga to be 64 bit, development on his new project stops completely. He’s in a position financially where he just can’t afford to go back as he has to finish the new game. It would cost far more in time to make the changes than any revenue he could hope to make out of it, this late in the product lifecycle.

Obviously, we’d prefer it if Apple didn’t remove 32bit support as there is no technical reason they need to. Apparently, it is entirely a marketing decision on their part. Some press is reporting that the only reason it’s being removed is to force all apps to be 64 bit, which in turn makes 32-bit phones/iPads obsolete and users have to upgrade their hardware. That’s of course where the majority of Apple’s revenue comes from, with App Store sales being a very minor earner. While it may make sense from Apple’s perspective, it leave us and many other publishers and developers in a difficult position. We’re basically trapped – we’d really like to keep selling and supporting these games, but simply don’t have the bandwidth to do so without hurting projects by developers who are relying on us.

[enric]

Thank's Iain, I understand your points, as…, I also understand Apple's points.

I always wondered why nobody is offering games sold with the annual fee system, as many professional software is, versus the constant release of new titles.

How many people will agree paying, for example, 20-30 € per year, for games how PzC or BA? And with this, having one or two updates a year, including wishes of the community and keeping compatibility with old scenarios, mods, etc. This is usual in development software, CAD, audio, music writing, and many others. This will, for sure, make a growing community of players.

[proline]

Obviously, we’d prefer it if Apple didn’t remove 32bit support as there is no technical reason they need to. Apparently, it is entirely a marketing decision on their part. Some press is reporting that the only reason it’s being removed is to force all apps to be 64 bit, which in turn makes 32-bit phones/iPads obsolete and users have to upgrade their hardware. That’s of course where the majority of Apple’s revenue comes from, with App Store sales being a very minor earner. While it may make sense from Apple’s perspective, it leave us and many other publishers and developers in a difficult position. We’re basically trapped – we’d really like to keep selling and supporting these games, but simply don’t have the bandwidth to do so without hurting projects by developers who are relying on us.

Enough with all the Apple hate, this isn't a 90s Mac vs. PC flame war- that got tired ages ago. And you need to find other sources of information about Apple than Business Insider or whoever is feeding you conspiracy bull****. Apple just held WWDC where they explained quite clearly, as always, why they do things. Apple has a huge lead in CPU core performance over any other mobile vendor which they plan to grow by dropping all 32 bit instructions in the A11 processor and using those transistors for useful things. That will leave this year's devices incapable of running 32 bit code except in a software emulator which is not an acceptable solution for a battery powered device. Only 387 million out of the 1162 million iPhones sold to date have been 32 bit, the most recent of them being from 2012. These phones, or rather those that are still in service, are old with or without iOS 11 so users would be looking to upgrade soon either way. That said, developers are welcome to target iOS 10 and include 32 bit binaries until 2020, so there is nothing 'forcing' anyone to stop supporting older devices. Quite frankly, there is no need to resort to conspiracy theories when the face value explanation- that dropping 32 bit will simplify both Apple's hardware and software- makes perfect sense.

As far as developers are concerned, if you code using Apple's own tools then 64 bit is a simple matter of a recompile. If, against Apple's advice, you rely on poorly supported 3rd party libraries then I suppose you have a problem. Maybe if you tried fully supporting Apple's systems- you know actually learning to code in Swift and stuff- you'd have higher performing more natural feeling apps that customers would love along with an easier time updating. More work upfront but a payoff later. If PzC Mac is any indication, the reason your Mac sales are poor is because your Mac games aren't fun, so why not deal with that before you give up on the platform? I mean, come on here, your Mac games don't scroll natively, the typography is terrible, the UI is distorted, they feel like ******** ports of PC games. Nobody wants that.

[enric]

… the reason your Mac sales are poor is because your Mac games aren't fun, so why not deal with that before you give up on the platform? I mean, come on here, your Mac games don't scroll natively, the typography is terrible, the UI is distorted, they feel like shitty ports of PC games. Nobody wants that.

Proline, you are entirely right.
I have participate in some beta test, and, I reported all UI that were wrong according Apple Human Interface, but usually, them were never considered.
Porting PC interface games to the Mac is only acceptable for those unconditional war-games fans and so a little market niche, it's a loop.

[pipfromslitherine]

Firstly Proline, I have edited your post for language. Please remain civil.

Yes, going 64bit only makes a lot of sense, for Apple! But it is disingenuous to just ignore the millions of man hours that they have required to be spent by the very developers who fill the app store with product. No other major OS has dropped 32b support, and the wafer space needed by 32b conversion HW is tiny. I have no doubt that users would be all over a software mode to run their older apps, irrespective of battery cost.

And the reason that we use custom code, rather than Apple specific languages, is that we need these games to be multiplatform. Apart from the fact that without the low-level native code that we used, BA would never have (e.g.) run on the iPad 1, or probably even the 2.

Frankly the idea that "if you just did things the (entirely incompatible with anything else) Apple way then you wouldn't have had these problems!" is exactly the way that Apple's software division thinks. Which comes right back to the fact that Apple does what is best for Apple. Which is their prerogative, but it's then hardly fair to attack us for doing the same.

Cheers

Pip

[enric]

Firstly Proline, I have edited your post for language. Please remain civil.

Yes, going 64bit only makes a lot of sense, for Apple! But it is disingenuous to just ignore the millions of man hours that they have required to be spent by the very developers who fill the app store with product. No other major OS has dropped 32b support, and the wafer space needed by 32b conversion HW is tiny. I have no doubt that users would be all over a software mode to run their older apps, irrespective of battery cost.

And the reason that we use custom code, rather than Apple specific languages, is that we need these games to be multiplatform. Apart from the fact that without the low-level native code that we used, BA would never have (e.g.) run on the iPad 1, or probably even the 2.

Frankly the idea that "if you just did things the (entirely incompatible with anything else) Apple way then you wouldn't have had these problems!" is exactly the way that Apple's software division thinks. Which comes right back to the fact that Apple does what is best for Apple. Which is their prerogative, but it's then hardly fair to attack us for doing the same.

Cheers

Pip

Hi Pip, about "specific" languages, I'm sure you are aware that there are several (I know because I worked on them) cross-platform native OOP. Using them and with very little code changes you get a compiled version for Linux, MacOS 32 or 64, Windows, and now iOS. I know how hard is changing language, environment, but the software world is like it is.
On the other way, we should be conscious that we are here for fun, and you (Slitherine) are there for business, and you need to balance the account.

[proline]

Yes, going 64bit only makes a lot of sense, for Apple! But it is disingenuous to just ignore the millions of man hours that they have required to be spent by the very developers who fill the app store with product. No other major OS has dropped 32b support, and the wafer space needed by 32b conversion HW is tiny. I have no doubt that users would be all over a software mode to run their older apps, irrespective of battery cost.

Nope, the last thing Apple users want is a battery draining mode designed to help app developers go years without updating their code. Apple's users have spent $26 billion on the App Store, with advertising revenue as much again, and with Apple's total revenue of over $200 billion per year. Apple's user base has a lot of money and chooses to spend that money on a quality experience. Fortunately, many developers offer just that, which makes it hard to compete using sloppy ports of PC games. I can tell you right now, running iOS 11 of course, that I have zero, and I mean zero, need for a mode to run 32 bit abandonware with hundreds of thousands of freshly updated apps.

Also, do you really know more about wafer space than Apple, the clear leader in mobile CPU performance? Because their iPhone 7 cores Geekbench 3,500 to the Galaxy S8's 1,846- basically double. Yes, the gains from dropping 32 bit may be modest, but the gains from ruthlessly pushing performance every way possible are very real.

Frankly the idea that "if you just did things the (entirely incompatible with anything else) Apple way then you wouldn't have had these problems!" is exactly the way that Apple's software division thinks. Which comes right back to the fact that Apple does what is best for Apple. Which is their prerogative, but it's then hardly fair to attack us for doing the same.

I'm not attacking you for doing what's best for you, I'm pointing out that you aren't doing what's best for you. If you truly aren't capable of maintaining your iOS/macOS products in working order such that they are attractive to users and profitable, don't make them, because right now PzC is bad enough to damage your brand for anyone who does spend $20+ on it. That said, I'm not truly convinced that you can say that coding using modern best practices and native environments doesn't work if you've never actually tried it, and considering the large and wealthy demographic Apple has access to you probably should. I mean it seems like you know there's money to be made from Apple users as you've released lots of titles and never completely given up, so why not take a page from Steve Jobs and just "make it great" one time to see what happens?

[IainMcNeil]

This is like complaining your Windows XP games don't run on Windows 10. Its a different operating system. The OS should be backwards compatible and you should not expect the software to be updated to continue running. That's clearly not the developers responsibility but Apple have tried to train consumers to believe it is. Clearly its working

[proline]

Actually taking pride in your work and maintaining it for future generations is your responsibility- nobody else will do it for you. Even Microsoft won't support your game forever. Starcraft came out in 1998 and has been updated for high resolution displays- currently required macOS 10.10 or higher which came out in 2014! Anyway, you seem to be trapped in a vicious circle where you can't afford to release polished work, so you don't make enough money, so quality goes down further, etc. I hope that you're one day able to break the cycle and make games that shine. If that means dropping the Mac / iOS platforms so be it- better to do a few things well than many things poorly. That said, I think you underestimate the money to be made from Apple users based on the success of a few low-quality ports. Offer good stuff that fully supports the platform and you'll get a totally different response.