Commander Influence Rules Clarification

[BrianC]

After a break over the summer months we are back playing FOG again but after re-reading the rules have a question about Commanders and what they can do.


Question 1

From my reading it looks like Commanders have to physically be attached to any BG that it tries to Rally, Bolster or influence a CMT for. The only thing that I could find that a commander can help a BG he is not physically attached to is to assist battlelines, double moves.

I find the rule book contradictory and was hoping for some clarification from those more experienced.

The QRS (at the end of the book) for cohesion tests does say:

"Commander in LoC in range if BG is not in close combat or with BG if it is in close combat +1."

However, when you go into the rules it says the opposite in a number of places.

P110 Bullet 3 says “…Otherwise a commander can attempt to bolster or rally a battle group that he is with” Those words are even highlighted in the rules.

P110 Bullet 6 says “when attempting to bolster or rally a battle group, only the commander with the battle group can apply his modifiers…”

P43 4th bullet says “to be able to influence a CMT, a commander must be with the testers from the start of the phase to count as with them, and in command range from the start of the phase to count as in command range” To be honest I am not sure what this para means other than the commander must start the phase with the BG it is influencing in its CMT. I mean if the commander is with the BG is it also not in command range as well?

I have spent time searching for the answer in the book, on this forum but no luck.

So I’m not sure which is correct, the rules or the chart?



Question 2

P99 5th bullet says “A commander who is fighting in the front rank can only influence the complex move tests or cohesion tests of the battlegroup he is with….”

Is there a time when a commander in close combat can influence a CMT? If so when? I thought that any BG stuck in a close combat could not move, hence no need for a CMT?

Thanks for any clarity on the above questions.

Brian

[nikgaukroger]

Re: your first question I think you are looking at the various quotes somewhat out of context.

A commander can influence a BG he is within his command range of, however, there are exceptions when he can only affect them if he is actually with them. Bolstering is one of these and when a commander is in combat he can only affect the BG he is physically with.

As for question 2 I can't off hand think of a case where a BG will need to CMT in combat - other than the one not to pursue/to pursue which IIRC is a CMT.

[hammy]

Commanders can influence BGs that they are not actually with for things like CMTs or cohesion tests (that result from non close combat reasons). As a result if you for example have an inspired commander then he will give your troops a significant boost against enemy missile fire as all BGs within 12MU will have +2 on their cohesion tests.

Once a BG is in melee the only CMTs it will be needed to take are those to do with pursuit, or stopping pursuit but in order to influence these tests the commander has to be with the BG.

[sagji]

Question 1

From my reading it looks like Commanders have to physically be attached to any BG that it tries to Rally, Bolster or influence a CMT for. The only thing that I could find that a commander can help a BG he is not physically attached to is to assist battlelines, double moves.

I find the rule book contradictory and was hoping for some clarification from those more experienced.

The QRS (at the end of the book) for cohesion tests does say:

"Commander in LoC in range if BG is not in close combat or with BG if it is in close combat +1."

This is misleading as it leaves out having to be with the BG to bolster / rally it.

However, when you go into the rules it says the opposite in a number of places.

P110 Bullet 3 says “…Otherwise a commander can attempt to bolster or rally a battle group that he is with” Those words are even highlighted in the rules.

P110 Bullet 6 says “when attempting to bolster or rally a battle group, only the commander with the battle group can apply his modifiers…”

P43 4th bullet says “to be able to influence a CMT, a commander must be with the testers from the start of the phase to count as with them, and in command range from the start of the phase to count as in command range” To be honest I am not sure what this para means other than the commander must start the phase with the BG it is influencing in its CMT. I mean if the commander is with the BG is it also not in command range as well?

What it means is:
To get the bonus for with the BG/BL the commander must have been with the BG/BL from the start of the phase - in other words you can't move a commander to a BG and then move the BG and benefit frmo the +1 for commander with.
To get the bonus from a commander in Range the commander must havew been in range from the beginning of the phase - in other words you can't move a commander to a BG and then move the BG and benefit frmo the +1 for commander in range.

I have spent time searching for the answer in the book, on this forum but no luck.

So I’m not sure which is correct, the rules or the chart?

A general is is required to be with:
A BL to enable it to move as a BL
A BG to enable it to make a second move
A BG/BL to stop a difficult advance counting as such
A BG to attempt to rally / bolster it - only this general can influence the CT
A BG to influnce CTs if the BG is in close combat
A BG, and fighting in the front rank, to influnce quality rerolls for close combat dice.[/list]

A general fighting in the front rank can only influence the BG he is with.

Question 2

P99 5th bullet says “A commander who is fighting in the front rank can only influence the complex move tests or cohesion tests of the battlegroup he is with….”

Is there a time when a commander in close combat can influence a CMT? If so when? I thought that any BG stuck in a close combat could not move, hence no need for a CMT?

Correct - but the rule is saying he can't influence the CMT of a different BG.

[BrianC]

Thanks for the replies guys. I re-read those sections of the rules pertaining to cohesion tests and bolstering and rallying but still can't see where I am reading it out of context. I agree with what you guys are saying as far as being or not having a commander with a BG being affected but can someone point me to a page and para that actually states that? The only references I can find explicitly say you HAVE TO BE with the bg you are bolstering. There is no where in the rules that state that you don't have to be with the bg for specific functions. When I read

"P110 Bullet 3 says “…Otherwise a commander can attempt to bolster or rally a battle group that he is with” Those words are even highlighted in the rules. "

I take that literally, you should not be able to read something like that section out of context. Have a look at the whole section not just the one bullet and it should be clear my interpretation.

I ask the above so that I can show others where to find it in the rules rather than me sounding like I am just making it up. Players like to be able to go to a section and find the answer, I cannot do this with this issue.

Thanks again guys, and please take my position merely as one trying to learn the rules to the best of his ability.

Brian

[hammy]

What about P28, Commanders?

A commander can only be with one battle group at a time. When that battle group is in close combat he can elect to fight in the front rank or to encourage the battle group from the rear. Unless he is fighting in close combat he can influence other battle groups that are in his command range and not in close combat

[BrianC]

Thanks Hammy,

I guess my problem is that I see in the Cohesion Test section of the rules it says on p110 that a commander must be with a BG to bolster or rally it, but then in your quote it says a commander can influence other BGs in its command range and not in close combat. The Cohesion Test section seems to be more explicit where the p28 quote simply says influence, which leads me to ask what does influence mean? So if p28 trumps all else, what does the p110 section mean when it says that commanders must be with the BG?

Also Sagji wrote above:
A general is is required to be with:
A BL to enable it to move as a BL
A BG to enable it to make a second move
A BG/BL to stop a difficult advance counting as such
A BG to attempt to rally / bolster it - only this general can influence the CT
A BG to influnce CTs if the BG is in close combat
A BG, and fighting in the front rank, to influnce quality rerolls for close combat dice.[/list]

But that seems to differ from what Nik said in his first reply.

I don't know how else to ask this, it just seems that when I read the appropriate sections of the rules it hints at one thing (being able to influence other BGs you are not in contact with) while it explicitly says another (p110 you must be with the BG). From my reading, the rules say that you must be with the BG regardless of being in close combat. How should I be reading the rules? Does page 28 trump all other rules? Should I cross out the section on p110 that says "Otherwise a commander can attempt to bolster or rally a battle group that he is with"? Then it makes sense to me. I guess page 110 is my sticking point. I must have blinders on and am totally missing something very obvious or maybe I just need a coffee, still thanks for any help as always guys.

One thing I can say about FOG and its developers is that they really support the game and it is appreciated. This forum has been a huge help in learning the system.

Thanks again

Brian

What about P28, Commanders?

A commander can only be with one battle group at a time. When that battle group is in close combat he can elect to fight in the front rank or to encourage the battle group from the rear. Unless he is fighting in close combat he can influence other battle groups that are in his command range and not in close combat

[hammy]

P110 is part of the Joint Action Phase rules. the rule in question relates to what commanders can do in the joint action phase and the only ways they can influence a BG in the JAP are to bolster, rally or to help a CMT to stop pursuit. The section on P110 is specifically relating to bolstering and rallying not any of the other things a commander can do.

Alan's list specifies where a commander has to be actually with a BG to have an effect. Specifically: to move as a BL, enable a BG or BL to make a second move, to stop a difficult advance counting as such, to attempt to rally / bolster it - only this general can influence the CT, to influnce CTs if the BG is in close combat and fighting in the front rank, to influnce quality rerolls for close combat dice.

A general can have influence when he is not with a BG in a number of situations, things like making a CMT other than to stop pursuit or making a cohesion test while not in combat.

Don't get hung up on the rules on P110, they only apply during the JAP, there are plenty of other times a commander may influence BGs and the relvant rules should be colocated.

Does that help at all.

[BrianC]

Thanks for that Hammy, perhaps that was what Nik was referring to above. I'm at work right now so can't access the rules but will give them a look over after dinner with your post in mind. Then perhaps it will be clearer. Thanks for your help, I hope to be able to post a later ,

Thanks again

Brian

P110 is part of the Joint Action Phase rules. the rule in question relates to what commanders can do in the joint action phase and the only ways they can influence a BG in the JAP are to bolster, rally or to help a CMT to stop pursuit. The section on P110 is specifically relating to bolstering and rallying not any of the other things a commander can do.

Alan's list specifies where a commander has to be actually with a BG to have an effect. Specifically: to move as a BL, enable a BG or BL to make a second move, to stop a difficult advance counting as such, to attempt to rally / bolster it - only this general can influence the CT, to influnce CTs if the BG is in close combat and fighting in the front rank, to influnce quality rerolls for close combat dice.

A general can have influence when he is not with a BG in a number of situations, things like making a CMT other than to stop pursuit or making a cohesion test while not in combat.

Don't get hung up on the rules on P110, they only apply during the JAP, there are plenty of other times a commander may influence BGs and the relvant rules should be colocated.

Does that help at all.

[Redpossum]

Before reading this thread, I thought I had it all figured out.

Now I have a headache and I'm totally confused

[BrianC]

Ok Possum ROTFLOL that made me laugh. I am at work and almost blew water out my nostrils reading your reply. .

I must admit that when I first got FOG and was playing it, I played it the way everyone else does using command ranges etc. But then I took a break over the summer and just re-read the rules and started to see what appears to be contradictions. So I started to get confused and my head was hurting and still is a little. When I re-read the rules I was not looking at the chapter where the rule was but simply the section within the chapter. And I kept seeing "must be with the BG" sort of thing. But again, as Nik and Hammy pointed out it could be a missunderstanding of the intent. I can't wait for the clock to move along so I can get home and read the sections again with Hammy's comments in mind.

Still thanks for the cheer up today

Brian

Before reading this thread, I thought I had it all figured out.

Now I have a headache and I'm totally confused

[Redpossum]

Hehehe, glad to amuse.

If nothing else, I still have some value as court jester

Part of my problem is being totally new to miniatures in a world where everybody else played WRG or Warrior or De Bellum Whateverthehell.

It results in some intensely comical moments. I saw people talking about "Bw" and "Bw*" and drove myself mad trying to find any reference to such in the rules. Then I realised that there's no such thing in FoG, they were lapsing into DBM-speak, and they meant "Bow" and "Bow*".

Same with people saying HI/MI/LI when they mean HF/MF/LF. Everybody else here parses it and mentally translates without a hitch. Having no prior frame of reference, I sit in the metaphorical dark scratching my arse and wondering, "What the F**K, over?"

[BrianC]

You know, I feel the same way sometimes on here as I have asked what I think are some basic questions. I used to be a wargamer (board) and have played miniatures but mostly WWII. I am a newcomer to ancients too, and its nice to know I am not alone in my pain.

I too have seen and see people talking DBx talk and have to guess at what they mean, I am glad that they are calling bases bases instead of elements now. When I was learning FOG and heard element I was wondering what else I missed. But you know, if I can ask a question and it helps at least one other new player I will gladly look the fool. I did find the rules difficult to read and understand. That might be because I am Canadian and speak different English or my WWII background and the way rules are written there are different. Perhaps it was that I have no experience with DBx as well. But I have found the guys on here awesome. They take the time and make sure you get a good answer. I just wish we had more FOG players out here in Alberta Canada. Would love to make it out to England and go to a con or two.

Hehehe, glad to amuse.

If nothing else, I still have some value as court jester

Part of my problem is being totally new to miniatures in a world where everybody else played WRG or Warrior or De Bellum Whateverthehell.

It results in some intensely comical moments. I saw people talking about "Bw" and "Bw*" and drove myself mad trying to find any reference to such in the rules. Then I realised that there's no such thing in FoG, they were lapsing into DBM-speak, and they meant "Bow" and "Bow*".

Same with people saying HI/MI/LI when they mean HF/MF/LF. Everybody else here parses it and mentally translates without a hitch. Having no prior frame of reference, I sit in the metaphorical dark scratching my arse and wondering, "What the F**K, over?"

[babyshark]

It results in some intensely comical moments. I saw people talking about "Bw" and "Bw*" and drove myself mad trying to find any reference to such in the rules. Then I realised that there's no such thing in FoG, they were lapsing into DBM-speak, and they meant "Bow" and "Bow*".

Same with people saying HI/MI/LI when they mean HF/MF/LF. Everybody else here parses it and mentally translates without a hitch. Having no prior frame of reference, I sit in the metaphorical dark scratching my arse and wondering, "What the F**K, over?"

I am certainly guilty of some of that, despite my best efforts. Shifting my headspace into FoG has resulting in a noticeable decline in my DBM abilities and only a slow increase in my FoG ability. One of these days . . . .

Marc

[babyshark]

But I have found the guys on here awesome. They take the time and make sure you get a good answer. I just wish we had more FOG players out here in Alberta Canada. Would love to make it out to England and go to a con or two.

Before flying all the way to England, perhaps you should try the US. We anticipate the imminent announcement of the Team Tournament in Atlanta. Are there three other FoG players in western Canada?

Even better: the IWF will be in Washington, DC in May '09. Now that is a great event.

Marc

[BrianC]

Ok I re-read the sections of the rules again pertaining to Commanders and bolstering, rallying and CMTs. Basically what I came up with is that a commander must be with a BG when it does any of the following as per Sagji's list


A general is is required to be with:
A BL to enable it to move as a BL (for purposes of movement the commander is considered to be with all BGs in BL in range)
A BG to enable it to make a second move
A BG/BL to stop a difficult advance counting as such
A BG to attempt to rally / bolster it - only this general can influence the CT
A BG to influnce CTs if the BG is in close combat
A BG, and fighting in the front rank, to influence quality rerolls for close combat dice.

A general fighting in the front rank can only influence the BG he is with.


And Hammy added the Commander support for testing due to being shot at. Does not need to be with BG onlyy in command range.

Hammy regarding non combat CMTs, p43 indicates that a commander must be with the BG from start to finish, is that simply saying that if a commander is physically required for the test for what ever reason during the whichever movement phase that he must be with the BG from start to finish? Not the way that I interpretted it which was for any CMT a commander has to be with the BG regardless of CMT tested for.

The key seems to be close combat or non close combat CTs, CMTs.

After re-reading my original post it seems that my assumption was correct as far as bolstering and rallying. But wrong on the CMTs and for shooting. It was the wording on the QRS that threw me as it seemed to state something other than what I was reading in the rules. But As both Nik and Hammy pointed out you have to read each section and interpret the contents for the phase you are dealing with appropriately. I was looking at it from a one rule fits all approach, which I am used to reading in other rule sets. That was the part I missed I think.

Can I assume then that the above statements are true and carry on??

Thanks again guys

Brian

[BrianC]

Washington might be doable actually, will have to keep an eye out. Being of English descent I have always wanted to see England and thought it would be great to take in some historical gaming at the same time as there seems to always be a tournament on somewhere. We do have some FOG players in the area but not enough for a dedicated tournament, still a good bunch of guys.

Brian

But I have found the guys on here awesome. They take the time and make sure you get a good answer. I just wish we had more FOG players out here in Alberta Canada. Would love to make it out to England and go to a con or two.

Before flying all the way to England, perhaps you should try the US. We anticipate the imminent announcement of the Team Tournament in Atlanta. Are there three other FoG players in western Canada?

Even better: the IWF will be in Washington, DC in May '09. Now that is a great event.

Marc

[hammy]

Hammy regarding non combat CMTs, p43 indicates that a commander must be with the BG from start to finish, is that simply saying that if a commander is physically required for the test for what ever reason during the whichever movement phase that he must be with the BG from start to finish? Not the way that I interpretted it which was for any CMT a commander has to be with the BG regardless of CMT tested for.

The commander modifiers for CMTs are three distinct items. If there is a commander in command range (and not distracted by being in the front rank) then you get a +1. If said commander is actually with your BG you get another +1 and if he is an inspired commander you get yet another +1 for a potential total of +3

The key seems to be close combat or non close combat CTs, CMTs.

If a BG is in close combat then the commander had to be with it to influence it. If the commander is fighting in close combat then he can only influence the BG he is with. Otherwise there are a number of occasions where being near the commander is enough.

[hammy]

Washington might be doable actually, will have to keep an eye out. Being of English descent I have always wanted to see England and thought it would be great to take in some historical gaming at the same time as there seems to always be a tournament on somewhere. We do have some FOG players in the area but not enough for a dedicated tournament, still a good bunch of guys.

Not trying to stop you going to Washington but if you want a potential UK tournament I would recommend Britcon. It is held every August in Manchester, the venue is 3-400 yards from the main station and there are direct trains from the airport to the station. Within a reasonable drive you have places like York, Chester and lots of nice castles in North Wales. London is 2 hours 15 minutes away by train (assuming no engineering works).

[BrianC]

Thanks for the help Hammy, just one question if I could on the CMT modifier for IC. I thought I read somewhere that you only get that if the IC is physically with the BG being influenced on the CMT, is that right? Or can an IC influence a BG within 12 MU and claim the +1 modifier for being an IC? Other than that I think I am on board finally.

August in Manchester sound awesome. I can probably easily sell it to my current fiancee, wife by then as we had to cut our vacation short this year. Plus there is so much to see besides.

Thanks as always

Brian

Hammy regarding non combat CMTs, p43 indicates that a commander must be with the BG from start to finish, is that simply saying that if a commander is physically required for the test for what ever reason during the whichever movement phase that he must be with the BG from start to finish? Not the way that I interpretted it which was for any CMT a commander has to be with the BG regardless of CMT tested for.

The commander modifiers for CMTs are three distinct items. If there is a commander in command range (and not distracted by being in the front rank) then you get a +1. If said commander is actually with your BG you get another +1 and if he is an inspired commander you get yet another +1 for a potential total of +3

The key seems to be close combat or non close combat CTs, CMTs.

If a BG is in close combat then the commander had to be with it to influence it. If the commander is fighting in close combat then he can only influence the BG he is with. Otherwise there are a number of occasions where being near the commander is enough.