Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[McGuba]

Perhaps a way to do it would be to create a Pz38(t) in the anti-tank class (with exactly the same stats as the one in the tank class. Then you could assign 1 or 2 of the starting Pz38(t)'s as the anti-tank variety which is able to be upgraded to Marder, whilst the remainder would remain outside the upgrade tree. That way you could restrict the number that could be upgraded.

With this the problem is that AT and tank units behave very differently even if they have the same stats. (AT units get bonus initiative on defense and penalty on attack). So the two Pz.38 units would be very different even though they would look the same and have the same stats. It would be very confusing for most players.


To be honest, none of the options are really good, but I also think that

I guess you can't force the player to upgrade a unit on a certain city/region, right? If so, you could force the player to have to move his PZ.II tanks to Germany and waste train and turns in the meantime. This would deter players to mass upgrade as it would be more costly from a strategic point of view.

I think its a best solution: upgrade several pre-named Pz II/38 only in German factory in City (unit action script in Hex (X,Y)) by player choice.
And looks is more realistic than auto-upgrade in the open field.
This method also can be used for modernization StuG IIIE ->StuG IIIF.

is the best solution. However, in this case it is somewhat strange that while all other units can be upgraded in the front, these have to be withdrawn to Germany. A possible immersive solution to explain it might be that since it is a cross class upgrade, the crews need more in-depth retraining which necessitates a withdraw to Germany. It is possible to do it in this way as I have the important German victory objective hexes marked with the "+" and these could be the retraining sites. There could be a timeframe, a small prestige penalty, and only some of the Pz.IIs and Pz.38s could be upgraded like that and then players could decide wheter they want to use this feature or not. (It has the clear drawback that the number of experienced tank units would reduce.) Also, only one of the starting StuGIIIs could be upgraded to the AT version so that the other can be used for the later StuH 42 upgrade. Then there would be a time and a small prestige penalty (e.g. 100 prestige) involved which would make the whole process more interesting. It would also be historical, as even though most Marders and AT StuGs were newly produced, some were indeed converted from existing old vehicles. Deal?

[Ceek]

I can dig it.

[empedocles]

Deal. of course we don't want to force the player to have to send many units back to germany as the front would be extremely underpowered. Just the PZII seems nice as it adds variete to the game without making the player loose the war.

[Yrfin]

With this the problem is that AT and tank units behave very differently even if they have the same stats. (AT units get bonus initiative on defense and penalty on attack). So the two Pz.38 units would be very different even though they would look the same and have the same stats. It would be very confusing for most players.

1. Difference between AT vs. Tank/Recon: if an anti-tank unit is attacked by a tank or a recon unit, the AT unit will have +3 initiative.

2. Tanks and AT have different Experience bonus:
Class Ini SA HA AA NA GD AD CD
Tank 50 100 100 0 0 100 50 0
AT 50 0 200 0 0 100 50 0

[JimmyC]

1. Difference between AT vs. Tank/Recon: if an anti-tank unit is attacked by a tank or a recon unit, the AT unit will have +3 initiative.

2. Tanks and AT have different Experience bonus:
Class Ini SA HA AA NA GD AD CD
Tank 50 100 100 0 0 100 50 0
AT 50 0 200 0 0 100 50 0

Thanks Yrfin. For some reason i thought that the +3 initiative thing only applied to towed AT. I also didn't consider the experience bonus.

@ McGuba - very minor point, but can i suggest that you change either the soft attack / hard attack / initiative to differentiate the Ostwind from the Mobelwagon? Mobelwagon’s gun only had full rotation vs airborne targets (not ground targets), whereas the Ostwind had full gun rotation vs both air and ground targets. So I think that this should be reflected in its stats vs ground troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6belwagen

[captainjack]

You could script a unit action to convert the Panzer 2/38(t) to Marder/Hetzer or whatever. This works because the unit action can convert units from one class to another.

You can give the player a choice (or a challenge) by requiring the units to be in a specific location within a certain time frame for the change to occur. You can even offer a choice of upgrade - place your tank on hex x to change to this, and hex y to change to that.

I have tried this in a very small scenario to give the choice of a slightly better SPAT or a much better towed gun according to which hex they place the unit on and it works fine.

This can also be used to convert artillery Stug to AT Stugs if so inclined.

[McGuba]

@ McGuba - very minor point, but can i suggest that you change either the soft attack / hard attack / initiative to differentiate the Ostwind from the Mobelwagon? Mobelwagon’s gun only had full rotation vs airborne targets (not ground targets), whereas the Ostwind had full gun rotation vs both air and ground targets. So I think that this should be reflected in its stats vs ground troops.

Sure, it makes sense, but only when it is in AA mode, when the armoured plates were not lowered, as written in the Wiki article that you referred to:

... Around this, four hinged 20 mm armored plates were placed. These plates had two operating positions: they could be lowered for full 360 degree traverse, allowing flat or low-level firing, or they could be half-closed, being pinned together to hang slightly open. In this position, they had notches that allowed the gun full rotation, but only for firing at airborne targets.

In the mod I modified the original icon so that in ground mode the plates are lowered allowing full 360 degree traverse:

MobelwagenAT.png (33.24 KiB) Viewed 4846 times

MobelwagenAT.png (44.82 KiB) Viewed 4846 times

However, in this mode the defense stats are reduced due to the increased exposure to enemy fire. Thus in AA mode, when the plates are up the defense stats are higher, and yes, I will minimize the ground attack values to represent the limited traverse.

You could script a unit action to convert the Panzer 2/38(t) to Marder/Hetzer or whatever. This works because the unit action can convert units from one class to another.

You can give the player a choice (or a challenge) by requiring the units to be in a specific location within a certain time frame for the change to occur. You can even offer a choice of upgrade - place your tank on hex x to change to this, and hex y to change to that.

I have tried this in a very small scenario to give the choice of a slightly better SPAT or a much better towed gun according to which hex they place the unit on and it works fine.

This can also be used to convert artillery Stug to AT Stugs if so inclined.

Yes, that is exactly what I have done. The players will be given the option to transfer one Pz.II and one Pz.38 to a victory objective city in Germany and when they are there they will be automatically upgraded to a Marder II and III, respectively. At the same time 100 prestige will be deducted to cover the costs of the upgrade. I just need to test it in game, but should not be a problem, as you wrote. I need to make sure though, that it can only be done once with each type so I am using tags. I did the same with one of the arty Stugs which can be upgraded to a long gun AT Stug in a similar way.

[Yrfin]

Question about spotting range.
In current situation Inf units and Tank units have same spotting range 2.
From my point of vision, its not quite logic.
What do you think about to reduce spotting range for Infantry to 1 ?
I dont know, how it will be reflected to AI action, but decreasing spoting range for Inf also increase Recon role in game.

[McGuba]

What do you think about to reduce spotting range for Infantry to 1 ?

Yes, it would make some sense, however the AI becomes really silly when "blinded" even further. Actually, instead of reducing spotting, I increased the spotting range of most AT units as in the original game they have only 1 hex spotting. This makes them very bad as they are more likely run forward and attack units with defensive artillery behind as they cannot see the arty and thus they do not take into account the defensive fire bonus when calculating wheter to make an attack or not. If infantry could only see 1 hex, the AI would become pretty much useless IMO. For the same reason I increased the spotting range of many naval units and found that the AI is somewhat better with them because of it. Basically, the more the AI can see, the more calculations it can make and has a better chance to find and attack the weakest spots and avoid running into traps.

[Yrfin]

What do you think about to reduce spotting range for Infantry to 1 ?

Yes, it would make some sense, however the AI becomes really silly when "blinded" even further...
If infantry could only see 1 hex, the AI would become pretty much useless IMO...
Basically, the more the AI can see, the more calculations it can make and has a better chance to find and attack the weakest spots and avoid running into traps.

Yes, its understandable.
But why AI are blinded ?
May be becoz at lack of Recon units for AI ?
Polish Army in game dont have recons (only Cavalery with 3 spot but without reconmove), France - only Panhard 178 (never seen it in game, IIRC), Soviets only BA-10, T-38 (BTW T-38 Available From 03.09.1941, but in real it was used from 1938) and T-40 (BF only). But Soviets have more 2000 BA-20 (analog SdKfz 221).
And all of this countries dont have Air Recon in game, but in real Polish Air have R-XIII Lublin Recon, France - Potez 63.11 R. Soviet also have R-5/Z and Yak-2/4.

Soviet early tanks had a very bad range of the sight, so may be decrease spotting range for them too ?

But with decreasing spotting range to 1, may be add to Enemy (AI) more Recon units for balance ?

And more questions about spotting.
1. AT range: "I increased the spotting range of most AT units as in the original game they have only 1 hex spotting." - its looking logical, but than all AA must have range 2 too, as have ability switch to AT. But in BF only 8.8 (AA/AT) have spotting range 2.
2. As I seen, StuGs in Arty stance also have spotting range 2 (was 1) ?
3. What for need Recon with spot 3 if strongpoint (!) have spot 4 ?

[McGuba]

But why AI are blinded ?
May be becoz at lack of Recon units for AI ?

It is just the fact that the AI is very basic in PzC 1. I really hope that it will be improved in PzC 2, because if not, there will be not much point for me to make the move for the next installment of this game. I will certainly not get "blinded" by the promised shining new 3D graphics. I just want a better AI and some improved game mechanics.

In PzC 1 the AI simply needs as much spotting as possible to function acceptably. Reduce the spotting of the units and you will get an even more dumb AI.

May be becoz at lack of Recon units for AI ?
Polish Army in game dont have recons (only Cavalery with 3 spot but without reconmove), France - only Panhard 178 (never seen it in game, IIRC), Soviets only BA-10, T-38 (BTW T-38 Available From 03.09.1941, but in real it was used from 1938) and T-40 (BF only). But Soviets have more 2000 BA-20 (analog SdKfz 221).
And all of this countries dont have Air Recon in game, but in real Polish Air have R-XIII Lublin Recon, France - Potez 63.11 R. Soviet also have R-5/Z and Yak-2/4.

Unfortunately the AI is so dumb that it cannot even use recon units convincingly - for example it does not use recon move at all. Therefore it does not really matter wheter if it has enough recon unit types or not. Like I wrote, the best we can do is to pick some units and give them extra spotting - that's what I did for the Soviets for example. I increased the spotting range of the T-60 and T-70 tanks from 2 to 3 hexes and moved them to recon class in my mod. In this way they can see more, even if the AI will not use them as scouts to reconnitre the area ahead but will simply use them as other tanks. But, since they have more spotting and will be moved by the AI before tanks they will see a bit more and then this extra recon info can be used by the Soviet tanks and Shturmoviks to better find the weakest units to attack. In the end I managed to make the T-60 and T-70 to behave quite accurately when moved by the AI as indeed these were mostly used as recon tanks to scout the area ahead of the medium and heavy tanks. But it is not because the AI is so smart, I just made use of some basic rules and actual weaknesses of the AI.

Oh, and I will add the BA-20 to the SU in the next version of my mod. I am also thinking to add some recon P-38 and Spitfire units to the Allies.

1. AT range: "I increased the spotting range of most AT units as in the original game they have only 1 hex spotting." - its looking logical, but than all AA must have range 2 too, as have ability switch to AT. But in BF only 8.8 (AA/AT) have spotting range 2.

True, there is some sense in it, I will look into these unit stats.

2. As I seen, StuGs in Arty stance also have spotting range 2 (was 1) ?

Sure, I think it would be strange if they have more spotting in AT mode than in Arty so I just increased it to the same level for consistency. Why would they see less if they are aiming at a higher angle?

[Yrfin]

Thanks for sharing information about stupid AI

I am also thinking to add some recon P-38 and Spitfire units to the Allies.

Yep, P-38E/G (F-4, 5A/B) will be good for UK air recon.
For UK tactical air recon can use Westland Lysander Mk I-III.

And one more idea about infantry.
Standard infantry unit have about 8GD/16AD.
But Pz IIIE unit have 8GD/9AD (!).

That mean, in open field both Infantry and Tanks units have same ground deffense ? Its not looking clear and intuitive.
I can imagine for myself infantry with 8GD only in close deffense, but in open field GD for attacking infantry must be much lesser (about 4 ?).
So, for to see distinctions between attacking and defending Infantry may be need to make switching infantry ?

Primary (def stance: GD 8, move 0)
Second (attack stance: GD 4, move 3, Ini +1) ?
Or it too complicated ?
Or AI just can't make a switch in this case ?

[guille1434]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

[Yrfin]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

How intresting ...
No problemo, then Move 1 for Def stance.

[McGuba]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

Which is a shame and that's why I cannot give 0 movement to some of the heaviest artillery. If I remember well in PG it wasn't like that.

Yep, P-38E/G (F-4, 5A/B) will be good for UK air recon.

I guess the Spirtfire recon would be better for UK. I am thinking to add the P-38 to the US. And a recon version of the Bf-109 to the Germans for 1944.

And one more idea about infantry.
Standard infantry unit have about 8GD/16AD.
But Pz IIIE unit have 8GD/9AD (!).

That mean, in open field both Infantry and Tanks units have same ground deffense ? Its not looking clear and intuitive.

Yeah, but do not forget that infantry is soft target and tanks are hard targets. And most units have a higher soft attack so infantry with the same GD will suffer more losses in the long run, especially in clear terrain.

So, for to see distinctions between attacking and defending Infantry may be need to make switching infantry ?

The AI is quite bad with multipurpose units. It is kind of good with AA/AT like the Soviet 85 mm, or Arty/AT, but for example it does not use the multipurpose submarines in my mod for most of the time. I think it would not be good with the infantry either as you described it. (I tried to make it to use a Soviet winter "Siberian" ski infantry / normal infantry but it did not use it at all when the seansons changed so I had to add a script to make it happen.)

[Yrfin]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

Which is a shame and that's why I cannot give 0 movement to some of the heaviest artillery. If I remember well in PG it wasn't like that.

I doubt what AI can enough supress heaviest arty, becoz heaviest arty stand far away from front line. So, i can't see problem with move 0 for H.Arty.

Yep, P-38E/G (F-4, 5A/B) will be good for UK air recon.

I am thinking to add the P-38 to the US.

Of coz US. My typo.

Yeah, but do not forget that infantry is soft target and tanks are hard targets. And most units have a higher soft attack so infantry with the same GD will suffer more losses in the long run, especially in clear terrain.

Yes, im understand difference between ST and HT.
But what call ST or HT ?
Opel Blits - ST, but SdKfz 7 - HT. Strange, both don't have armor.
Or situation with SdKfz 250/251. Is it HT or ST ? In few modes i seen SdKfz 250/251 as ST.

So, for to see distinctions between attacking and defending Infantry may be need to make switching infantry ?

The AI is quite bad with multipurpose units. It is kind of good with AA/AT like the Soviet 85 mm, or Arty/AT, but for example it does not use the multipurpose submarines in my mod for most of the time. I think it would not be good with the infantry either as you described it.

I made test for switchable Cavalry/Krads (Mount/Dismount) and seen what AI can handle with it.
I test German Inf switching to 7.5 leIG (R=1, move 2) and Soviet Inf with 76.2 Rgt gun M27, and it work also.
Of coz i don't have enough time and situation for full test it.

[Ceek]

I've just been thinking of some other ideas for continuing to improve the scenario in 1.9 and wanted to run them by you, McGuba.

1. Simulating espionage activities (and helping the "stupid AI")
In 1942 and 43, the Lucy Ring was essential in helping the Soviets anticipate and thwart German offenses in the East. Given all the discussion about "stupid AI," I want to propose again that this can be simulated by clearing FoW for the AI from along the Don and Dneipr throughout 1942 irrespective of weather and in the Kursk region in 1943 (which would simulate the ring's activities during the period). The player could receive a message indicating OKW suspects intelligence has been compromised and to assume the enemy may be aware of your intentions, but nothing more specific than that. I think this could raise the challenge of trying to defend against the Soviet counterattack in the winter of '42 and of beating them back at Kursk in '43. These reveals to the AI could be curbed after a period of time w/ the player receiving a report that the source of the leaks has been found and eliminated at the historically appropriate time.

2. A bettter Bagration
While Operation Saturn and Kursk are fairly well simulated in the mod, I feel like Bagration is not really given any special attention despite the massive amount of planning and coordination of elements that went into it. The offensive also came with a high degree of Soviet intel about German units, and I wonder if FoW reveals (similar to what I proposed above w/ the Lucy ring) would help give the AI a little extra "oomph" in organizing their offensives during these periods against Smolensk and Minsk. Also, I think partisan activity should be increased during this period significantly as this coordination help stymie the movement of German reinforcements to targeted areas. I also think these reveals would help prevent the still-present issue of mounted units driving headlong into German AT and Panzer units.

3. A pay-to-play option for Sealion
Early on in the scenario, the player is prompted that the OKW is prepared to aid in the support in the invasion of England for an investment of prestige. By moving a particular unit to a trigger city (say, Kiel), 1000-2000 prestige will be deducted for an couple extra destroyers (maybe one with a special mine elimination trait, like engineers?) and a small increase to naval transports? (say, lowering the scenario default to 5 and increasing to 10 if this option is taken by the player). This might also include a couple recon missions by elite Fallschirmjagers to scout out possible landing zones that would be simulated with FoW reveals in the UK for a turn or two and/or another Fallschirmjager unit this way?

4. Defending the Reich prestige boost
In the event Mussolini's Italy falls, the OKW can give the player the option to move a unit to a coastal town (Wilhelmshaven?) to trigger a reduction of German transport capacity to two or one. The message can explain that the effect is that raw materials previously dedicated towards to upkeep and expansion of the Kriegsmarine will be henceforth directed towards the Heer. The net effect is a one-time ~1000 prestige boost that the player can use to raise new units or upgrade others.

Thanks for reading, and I would be keen to hear your thoughts on these ideas!

[Intenso82]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

For a unit to retreat, do you need a move greater than zero or should it be able to make a move?

If the unit has move 1 and is in a difficult terrain in winter weather. Effective move = 0. But stats move = 1.
Will he always surrender or retreat?

[Yrfin]

The problem with 0 movement units, is that if they take enough supression, they will surrender instead of pulling back one hex...

For a unit to retreat, do you need a move greater than zero or should it be able to make a move?

If the unit has move 1 and is in a difficult terrain in winter weather. Effective move = 0. But stats move = 1.
Will he always surrender or retreat?

I think even Rudankort can't answer this question. Only your own test: Unit with move 1, blocked by H.Mountains or Major River (-200), under big supression, for example. Where he will move ? Surrender, retreat or suicide may be ?

[JimmyC]

I landed some Italian artillery on the Bocage north of Cairo to bombard the enemy there. It was only after subsequently attempting to move them that i realised that the artillery was now trapped there for the rest of the game! Uber annoying. I think it was because it had transport, but there is no way to disband transport unless you "upgrade" to no transport whilst in a friendly city. And here i thought i was being clever in landing it there...