Negative Oil & Fighters/Tanks Defending - Design Suggest

[rkr1958]

In a PBEM game I just finished as the Axis against Staffenberg (which he beat me soundly by March 1944) and a current PBEM game (still going on) as the Allies against Happycat we've encountered a similar situation in the end game of both games. The Axis get into a negative oil situation that they lose control of and can never get out of because of the oil consumed by air and tank units on defense. For example, an Allied fighter attacks a tactical bomber air base within range of an Axis fighter. The Axis fighter sorties to intercept (3 oil points) and then the tactical bomber defends (3 more oil points). Or, a German tank corps is attacked by two Allied ground units (2 x 3 or 6 oil points). Thus, Axis oil consuming units (i.e., air, tanks, motorized, ships & subs) become frozen in place and cannot attack. Only those ground units not adjacent to an enemy unit can be moved via rail. One potential suggestion is to not let oil drop below 0 and once it reaches 0 not let fighters "automatically" intercept. Also, tank and air units directly attacked could defend at some reduced efficiency.

What do you think? Other suggestions? Is any of this possible to get into the game?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think the easiest solution would be for the game to never let the oil get values below 0. When the oil is 0 then units can defend without lowering the oil level if attacked. In such situation you can defend without spending any oil at all.

At the start of the next turn Germany will get a small amount of oil again. This can be used for minor counter attacks or retreat oil consuming units from enemy ZOC. When you again reach 0 oil then you can't attack or move any oil consuming units. You have to wait till the start of your next turn to get your small amount of oil again.

I think this solution is very simple to implement because all you need to do is to let the minimum oil value be 0 and not a negative value. You don't have to change any game logics.

You could, of course, let the defender defend at reduced efficiency when the oil level is 0, but that means programming and testing and I don't think it's necessary. Just let them defend for free at full strength when the oil level is 0. I think the main thing to implement is that you can't launch OFFENSIVE actions when the oil level is 0.

Another simple solution would be to not limit units to MOVE when the oil level is negative. You just increase the negative oil value if you move. Then negative will only limit your ATTACKS, but not movement and defense. But I like the first option better.

[rkr1958]

I think the easiest solution would be for the game to never let the oil get values below 0. When the oil is 0 then units can defend without lowering the oil level if attacked. In such situation you can defend without spending any oil at all.

At the start of the next turn Germany will get a small amount of oil again. This can be used for minor counter attacks or retreat oil consuming units from enemy ZOC. When you again reach 0 oil then you can't attack or move any oil consuming units. You have to wait till the start of your next turn to get your small amount of oil again.

I think this solution is very simple to implement because all you need to do is to let the minimum oil value be 0 and not a negative value. You don't have to change any game logics.

You could, of course, let the defender defend at reduced efficiency when the oil level is 0, but that means programming and testing and I don't think it's necessary. Just let them defend for free at full strength when the oil level is 0. I think the main thing to implement is that you can't launch OFFENSIVE actions when the oil level is 0.

Another simple solution would be to not limit units to MOVE when the oil level is negative. You just increase the negative oil value if you move. Then negative will only limit your ATTACKS, but not movement and defense. But I like the first option better.

Never letting oil drop below 0 does sound like the simplest solution to negative oil. It would be nice as the Axis in the endgame to have some limited movement and counterattack possibilities. Again once oil hit 0 in a given turn then everything stops (i.e., movement & attack) with oil consuming units for the remainder of that turn.

This is a question for Johan (or someone else at firepower) ... could such a constraint be implemented in a future mod?

[firepowerjohan]

It can be changed but question is if it should be changed?
It has both pros and cons and the meaning is that when you run out of oil your oil units should be less useful.

[Redpossum]

Well, if you want historical accuracy, the Germans were able to scrape up enough POL to at least launch the Ardennes Offensive, if not carry it through.

Would the rules as they stand allow that?

If not, should they be amended to make it possible? Stauffenberg's suggestion would accomplish that goal.

LOL, now watch Stauffy come back and tell me I'm wrong about the Battle of the Bulge...

[rkr1958]

It can be changed but question is if it should be changed?
It has both pros and cons and the meaning is that when you run out of oil your oil units should be less useful.

That's exactly what happens when you hit 0. You can't move or attack with oil consuming units. The issue (if it's an issue) that I'm having is when it's your opponents turn and they force you to below 0 and in a hole from which you can never get out. When that happens you can't even move ships and subs at sea. They're frozen. Maybe 0 isn't the right minimum. Maybe it's -5 or -10 but it should be some value that allows the Axis some leeway for movement and attack with their oil consuming units in the end game. One possible solution is to put in a mod that gets the minimum value from a data file. The default could be set to -999. If folks wanted to change it then they could and could set it to what they want. If not, then they could leave it alone and the game would play like it does now. Is this possible?

[dooya]

Maybe it is possible to stop units on sentry from spending fuel when attacked? For instance, fighter on sentry do not flight automatic defense missions.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It can be changed but question is if it should be changed?
It has both pros and cons and the meaning is that when you run out of oil your oil units should be less useful.

The problem is not that you run out of oil, but that you get NEGATIVE oil. This should not be possible in the real war. When the stock pile is empty it's empty. But since defensive missions spend oil then the Allied player can lure the Axis fighters to defend every turn so they get so much negative oil that the small amount of oil produced by Germany won't bring the oil level above 0 again. This way you get the unwanted effect of never getting a single oil point left once you hit 0. The enemy decides for you which oil missions you must spend oil on.

The Germans managed to launch a limited offensive with armor in December 1944 (the Battle of the Bulge). One of the goals of this offensive was to capture the Allied oil depot in Stavelot in Belgium. The Axis offensive ran out of oil just prior to reaching that goal.

So the Germans definitely had a chance to save small amounts of oil to launch a minor offensive even close to the very end of the war.

I think you shouldn't be allowed to get negative just as you shouldn't be able to get 0 manpower. When you have 0 oil you should either be able to defend for free or you change the game so fighters will never intercept if the oil level is 0. You can also say that oil consuming units will not fire back if attacked if you think it's too much of a problem that they can defend for free if oil reaches 0.

The most important thing is that Germany should be allowed to get a small amount of oil each turn (the intrinsic oil production only if Ploesti has been captured by the Allies). This should give the Germans maybe something between 10-20 oil and thats enough to move some units or launch a minor offensive. If they try to save the oil then the Allied player can lure German fighters to intercept and burn oil or attack German oil consuming units.

When the German manpower reaches 0 it means they shouldnt be able to build new units or repair any units if that spends 1 manpower or more. Then Germany will get 10 or so manpower the next turn etc.

It can be the same with oil. When you reach 0 oil all your oil consuming units shuts down and can't even defend or intercept. Then you get back a small amount of oil next turn to give you some freedom. But if this is too much work to program then I think you only need to program that the minimum value for oil reserves is 0 and not a negative value. Then Germany can defend for free and get a small oil level at the beginning of their turn. That inaccuracy is smaller than the big inaccuracy that oil levels can decrease to a negative level thus preventing Germany from ever again moving an oil consuming unit.

[JonnyA]

I haven't seen this effect myself, but here goes my opinion...

It seems to me that, whatever the game mechanics, the overall effect of negative oil is quite realistic, in that you totally lose the initiative about what your units are doing. Oil should only ever run out in the very last stages of the war. (I learnt very quickly that the Axis player really has to think about this all through the game, and sometimes forgo some very tempting opportunities.) So any oil that is issued to units is going to be used by them in self-defence (by tanks to beat off enemy attacks and by fighters to defend their own airfields), probably even if they have orders to stockpile it. If you run out of oil your whole war effort is going to grind to a halt very quickly and in far wider ways than the game simulates at the moment. The game should and does become almost a solitaire scenario of 'how fast can the Allies over-run the Axis?'

If you don't like it, you can always modify the amount of off-map oil that Germany receives, surely?

[afk_nero]

Another simpler solution within the game mechanics is just to use rail to move your aircraft out of range and then begin the stockpiling of oil. Considering that we are dealing with corps level who would in most instances have some local stockpiling of oil - the negative oil value could represent the use of the local commit and the central reserve - a backlog of oil requests from other units would then cause a negative value of units awaiting oil.

Even standard Infantry corps needed some oil albeit very limited - everyone near the end of the war was asking for oil with some units recieving and other suffering - there would however still be a backlog of requests coming in from all directions. In the war there was never a situation of no oil so a core using oil to defend or air using to defend seems sensable.

A simple situation could be - 3 corps require oil, - you can provide 1 unit with oil, which is in combat so recieves priority. The fact that the unit is consuming oil does not eliminate the need of the others (there stockpile could be exhausted etc etc) - in the next 20 days another 2 corps require oil but due to combat commitments you can only provide oil to a further 1 and so the negative value of units requiring oil grows and grows - the trick is to disengage oil consuming units and wait for a build up. Armoured corps are a waste if used in a purely static defense role anyway and you should be punished for using them as such, Air units are easy to disengage through rail transport.

The issue is not one of negative oil in my book but rather one of prioritising where the oil goes. This I dont believe can be achieved with the current game mechanics so I for one am happy with the current situation as I believe this to be more historically acurate then a situation of zero value oil as I dont believe this to be truly representative of the reality of the WW2.

[rkr1958]

Another simpler solution within the game mechanics is just to use rail to move your aircraft out of range and then begin the stockpiling of oil.

That's not possible in the endgame when Axis control territory is shrinking and all hexes are within range of Allied air.

The issue is not one of negative oil in my book but rather one of prioritising where the oil goes. This I dont believe can be achieved with the current game mechanics so I for one am happy with the current situation as I believe this to be more historically acurate then a situation of zero value oil as I dont believe this to be truly representative of the reality of the WW2.

In the situation that I'm describing prioritization is not possible. The oil is consumed on defense where the Allies select which units to attack. An effective strategy is to use Russian units in low odds attacks against Axis oil consuming units just to keep Axis oil reserves negative. The Axis player again has no control over this. The game engine has no mechanism for allowing the Axis player to stockpile a small reserve of oil to use for limited counterattacks with oil consuming units (either on land or at sea). The units defend and consume the oil automatically.

[afk_nero]

To be honest if all air units are within range - then this means the end is very near, so does it make a difference if you have oil or not?
I would think at this stage bigger problems would be you manpower levels as you would have had to switch to Corps production.

I agree it would be a great facility to be able to ground air corps - but then this should have the automatic effect of reducing effectiveness to zero. As for land based armoured units - how in an actual combat situation where the corps is engaged you could prevent the corps using oil then you are essentially destroying the corps - tank crews dont fight very effectivly on foot and although there is attached Panzer Grens they are not as effective as a full Infantry corps due partially to numbers. Would OKH allow a full Panzer Korps die by withholding oil - the first priority would be to disengage the unit and pull back ready for counterattack.

I can see the reasoning for grounding air units and not allowing them to do interdiction methods - and I agree with this request, I would still stand by the point that I dont disagree with the mechanism of negative oil.

[rkr1958]

To be honest if all air units are within range - then this means the end is very near, so does it make a difference if you have oil or not?
I would think at this stage bigger problems would be you manpower levels as you would have had to switch to Corps production.

Say the range of an Allied tactical bomber is 12 hexes and the range of a German fighter is 9 hexes. Theoretically you could be based 21 hexes away from the Allied air and still be forced to attack. 21 hexes is a long way.

I would still stand by the point that I dont disagree with the mechanism of negative oil.

How negative? -10? -20? -30? -100? -999? There's no minimum on how far down you can go defending. That's ok. But you can't use 1 drop below 0 during the Axis turn to move a unit out of harms way or launch a limited but potentially crucial counterattack. If effect the game engine has taken over those units except for the ability to rail when not in an enemy zoc.

A possible solution (comprise) that I offered up a few posts above was a request to program a minimum oil level into the engine that would be read from a data file. It could be set to -999 as the default. If someone wanted to mod it then they could have the freedom to do so. If not, then they could leave it alone. Again this is a question for Johan. Would this be possible to include in a future CEaW mod?

[JonnyA]

I think it is important to remember that the oil mechanics in the game are abstract - 0 oil doesn't mean 'no oil left in Germany', it means 'not enough oil left for OKH to use in a strategic way'. If you want a reserve to save for counter-attacks, then stop using oil burning units before you get anywhere near 0!?

I don't see how having a limit to how far down a negative oil count can go helps. If you stop it going very low, so it can come back up to positive in a couple of turns if you don't use your oil burning units, then surely that is limiting the effects of running low on oil, which in the real world would be catastrophic indeed. I think it would be more realsitic, if a change were to be made, so that once oil reaches a large enough negative value, that even infantry couldn't move - but it should be a moot point because by then the Axis is doomed anyway.

I think people playing the Axis have to accept that if they run out of oil, they lose the game. Trying to fiddle with the mechanics of exactly how the game shuts down their war effort seems a bit pointless, it would only make 1 or 2 turns difference to how long it would be before they had to surrender.

[afk_nero]

I have no issue with a design request to implement a -999 value which can be changed upon request - I would add another design request.

The ability to ground Fighters and lose all effectiveness for the 20 days they are grounded. Perhaps a button added when looking at the aircraft could acomplish this.

With regards to the 21 hex interdiction - I would assume that your opponent only has 1/2 strat bombers - which although a pain will still not use up all of your oil - so there should be some extra oil to be had.
I agree with JonnyA without oil Germany is finished but will add that with oil they are almost unstoppable.

If Axis has oil - then it would take a very good player to prevent defeat. If Axis has no oil it becomes a race to see if the Allies can totally defeat the Axis before the official end of the war.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The problem for Germany is that you WILL get very low on oil in 1943-1944 even if you save as much oil as possible. In this time a fighter will burn 4 or 5 oil per attack or defense. They can then burn 8-10 oil per fighter if Germany uses it offensively and it is forced to intercept during the Allied turn.

In 1943-1944 it's not a big problem for Allied strategic bombers to reach cities like Leipzig, Hannover, Hamburg, Munich etc. even from bases in Britain. So German fighters located near Berlin will be forced to intercept and burn 4-5 oil just for the interception. In 1943-1944 the Allied player can have 6-8 strategic bombers going after German factories. Let's say 4-5 of these attack each turn and the others repair or upgrade. That means Germany will see 4-5 fighters intercept each turn (if they have fighters in the area) and burn 16-25 oil per turn just for interceptions.

Germany usually have about 6 subs at this stage and these units need 6 oil per turn to just move.

I have played this game numerous times and try as hard as I can to save oil, e. g. by placing my armor units in the reserve to only deal with enemy spearheads. My tactical bombers only attack when it's very important to do so and rest most of the time.

To make matters worse for Germany you will see that the Allies have invaded Southern Italy or at least Sardinia and Sicily in 1943 and they try to engage as many German fighters as possible. Russia have also built many fighters and will do the same. So often you see all German fighters being forced to intercept every turn because the Allies deliberately play to force Germany to burn oil. With 10 German fighters all over the map you see 40-50 oil burnt every turn and you can do nothing about it.

So a completely defensive German player will see that this Allied strategy will starve him of oil regardless of what he does. The only alternative for Germany is to not build so many fighters or hide them where they can't be reached. That means they can't do anything to delay the Allied offensives and that's not very historical. Since interceptions are automatic you cant stop this problem any other way than not having the fighters in the first place or move them out of reach.

You can't say that Germany is on the brink of collapse in 1943 when the Allies are still in Britain, having only landed in southern Italy and the Russians are still east of the Dvina / Dnepr line. But Germany can in CeaW struggle very hard with oil i the Allies use the exploit I described. This is not historical at all. Germany couldn't launch huge offensives from 1944 and beyond, but they were capable of smaller offensives all the way till at least the beginning of 1945.

One problem I see is that you burn as much oil by rebasing air units or moving armor within friendly territory as you use when attacking. E. g. intercepting enemy fighters would consume less oil because you fly a shorter distance. E. g. moving an armor unit 1 hex to plug a hole consumes as much oil as moving 6 hexes.

You can't even move out of enemy ZOC if you have negative oil. Rail movement isn't allowed when in enemy ZOC.

CeaW will never be 100% accurate. If we wanted to achieve that then the oil consumption would be a factor of how many movement points you moved and whether you attacked or not. That's too complicated to program. So we need a very easy way to fix the problem with exploiting the enemy fighter forced interceptions.

I think one solution would be to program so that intercepting fighters spend HALF the oil (rounded down) as they would otherwise do. That means fighters would initially burn 3 oil on the offensive and only 1 oil when intercepting. In 1943 the intercepting fighter would burn 2 oil because they would burn 4 or 5 oil on the offensive. This way it's harder to get Germany down to negative oil and even if you manage to do it Germany can produce enough oil to get at least a little bit above 0 so they can withdraw armor units from enemy ZOC and rail them to safety.

But I prefer a system where the oil level can't fall below a certain value, e. g. -10. Let's say Germany receive 20-25 oil per turn then they have 10-15 oil to spend on movement or a very limited offensive even late in 1944. The Allies can still use the exploit to get Germany more quickly into oil starvation, but they can't completely shut down all German oil consuming units because the oil production each turn will get Germany slightly above 0 each turn.

I don't agree with those saying that when Germany get out of oil in the game is virtually over. Even a very conservative German player can run out of oil in 1943 or early 1944 still holding a considerable territory. It's very easy to say that Germany must save oil from the start and most clever German players do that, but you run out of oil in 1942 if you're careless and you run out of oil in 1943-1944 if you're careful. If the negative values can go far down then you can never recover from the situation even if you stop using a single oil consuming unit. So the big problem is the forced interceptions and not German armor having to defend in the front line. These can be withdrawn with rail movement before such a situation occurs.

I think the German fighters were grounded except when the Luftwaffe commanders felt it was really important to send up the fighters. But in CeaW they're sent up EVERY time even when the oil is negative.

So if you don't want the Germans to get any free use of oil consuming units then you just change the program a little when checking for interceptions so fighters can NOT intercept if the oil level is negative. That won't prevent the Allied exploit, but at least you can't permanently ground all Axis units. Getting the Axis down to 0 oil will only make sure you don't have to worry about interceptions. I think that solution is definitely better than the current situation where you can fly interception missions even with a big oil deficit, but you can't even move a single sub or armor unit out of enemy ZOC. Where is the logic in that?

[afk_nero]

I agree with almost all of your points - so down to the developers now as to what changes they can make.

I would still opt for a button giving you the ability to ground the planes (lose all effectiveness if attacked), but I dont know how feasable this is in terms of the coding.

Due to the interceptions I can see that it is air that is providing the problems not ground forces so its just the interdiction missions we need more control off.

Stauffenburg - I wouldnt mind playing a mirrored game against yourself if you are up for it. I would like to see 5/6 strat bombers in operation.

[rkr1958]

I agree with almost all of your points - so down to the developers now as to what changes they can make.

I would still opt for a button giving you the ability to ground the planes (lose all effectiveness if attacked), but I dont know how feasable this is in terms of the coding.

Due to the interceptions I can see that it is air that is providing the problems not ground forces so its just the interdiction missions we need more control off.

Stauffenburg - I wouldnt mind playing a mirrored game against yourself if you are up for it. I would like to see 5/6 strat bombers in operation.

I've seen it and it's not a pretty site. Not only do you burn oil but you spend LOTS of PPs repairing fighters. I eventually gave up trying to defend German cities and withdrew my fighters to a quieter and safer place. Eventually his strategic bombers ran out of targets because all Axis controlled cities in range were reduced to 0.

[Happycat]

OK, better late than never I suppose. I missed this thread at the time it was 'fresh", but am experiencing the same problem now in a PBEM. Germany should NEVER have negative oil. No one should---this is simply ridiculous.

Once the level is zero, fighters should NOT intercept. Otherwise, the Allied player, unintentionally or otherwise, eploits this to dig the Germans a hole that they can never climb out of. The only thing that should happen when the Axis is out of oil, and it is the Allied phase of the turn, is that armor and motorized units should defend. If a retreat is triggered, they should not retreat, but take extra step losses---perhaps even be extinguished.

Having extra oil come from off-map is not a good solution imo. It is realistic and appropriate that Germany should run out of oil. But if they are out of oil, that should be it---going into negative territory is extremely punitive, and for me now ruins the game I am playing, and it is only June of 1944.

Johan, I hope that you will reconsider the merits of fixing this so that it cannot happen.

EDIT: As an alternative, since so many people seem to have a problem with the idea of limiting how deep in the hole German oil can go, then why not create the ability to ground fighters? (I can do this by sending them all to the interior of Germany, but without oil, that means rail movement---and anyway, soon all of Germany will be within reach of Allied air, and so my fighters will be forced up every turn).

[joe98]

The solution is thta in the factory there be an item named "Ersatz Oil"

This gives Germany the chance to produce oil at the expense of other things.

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