Elefant in the room - The Waffen SS

[KeldorKatarn]

I am not critisizing what PzC did. Specially now that we have non- german SE units and German Air force SE units, they bascially can't be SS anymore. There is no SS in the air.

My intention was to suggest how to handle them in the next game.

And I repeat my orginal suggestion: Put Waffen SS explicitly in certain scenarios where they histoircally belong but only as auxiliary forces. the player can't buy those or otherwise get them in his core beause they're SS, not army, so he can't have permanent command over them. They show up just like in history, as auxiliary forces attached to you for a single or multiple battles.

The BONUS/SE Units should be pure Elites that can be of any unit type or unit branch (ground/Air/Naval if naval core is added) and therefore should possibly be combined with the Grand Campaign heroes.

The PzC 1 Se units were bascially not really anything special except that they didn't take up any slots. Other than that.. no really big deal.
The GC heroes were cool because they represented historically known tank aces, fighter aces, whatever. So there was a reason why they were better than regular units. THey had aces. BUT they were a bit of a problem to deploy because they used up a core slot.

Combining them would create really useful units that are also very cool. They are based on histoircal people/units, they don't use up a core slot and they could get cool special camo, maybe based on the camo and insignia that person or that person's unit really used. For example a Hartmann fighter ace could use a Me 109 with his personal fighter painting. Sure he represents a unit and not only that one guy, but we can only display one fighter representing that unit so why not show his personal fighter. Or Otto Carius' tank with the correct turret number and stuff like that. That combines two really cool things about PzC1 into one nice feature and gets rid of the problems about both of them. SE Units were useful but a bit generic and heroes used up valuable slots and interfered with the core buiding. Combining them is my idea.

And the Waffen SS should then be nothing special, no elite stuff or anything but instead show up as real SS auxiliaries where historically correct. If you put them IN the player's core you can forget about calling them SS or you'll have massive advertizin problems in germany and a ton of other european countries.

If they are auxiliaries only and you maybe mention in the briefings that the army doesn't really like those guys, theny ou can probably get away with having them be called SS and be historically correct. Because they're not YOUR guys, they are just a nuisance you have to live with.

That's what I meant. Separate them from the core to make it easier to call them SS and easier to place them historically correct for scenario designers, and make the Bonus units cooler by combining them with the special-hero idea from the grand campaign.

[hs1611]

Look, I am going to end my participation on this discussion, because it's pointless and I think I already made my point.
This should be about the game and whether the Waffen-SS have a place in the game or not.
If I wanted to discuss the Waffen-SS per si I would go to the Axis History Forum.

But a few things require clarification.

I do not think the Waffen-SS were Elite:

If you want "historical correctness" than you should have a couple of SS units (CORE or AUX) with the same stats as Heer units, and the vast majority of SS units should be below average.

I do not think the Waffen-SS were cool:

SE units are slightly better than regular units, and look cooler too, so players that know little or nothing about the SS will just assume that's what they are and they can simply rename the units.

SE not SS

I never said having SS forces is fun. I said I want to be the one to decide if I want to have them or not:

Let me decide if I want SS units or not. Let my prejudices decide if they should be better or worse than Heer units. I'm paying for the game, so I should play it as I want.

Yes, I did say they were supplied by the Army. And you are absolutely correct, they were not.
They were supplied by just about the same suppliers that supplied the Army, and all their equipment was allocated through Armed Forces Command.
So they mostly got just about the same equipment as the Army, sometimes even lower quality equipment.

At first I did rename my SE units as SS but quickly discontinued that practice. Now I just call my 1st SE Tank I/SE-PzRgt.1, or something like that.
It just didn't feel right...

I've said my piece. For me this particular discussion is ended.

[Buffalohump]

I understand you now and am onboard for the idea of hero units being SE. My fear was that you were advocating for the elimination of SE units which would have upset one of my favorite dynamics of a core within the core.

[KeldorKatarn]

I understand you now and am onboard for the idea of hero units being SE. My fear was that you were advocating for the elimination of SE units which would have upset one of my favorite dynamics of a core within the core.

hell no. I just want to decouple the SS idea (and that's what they orgininally were) from the Bonus units idea and join them with the hero units instead which seem much more fitting.

[sn0wball]

Yes Nazi symbology is forbidden in Germany, but only to prevent people from starting that crap all over again. For films, historical documentation, art, education it's clearly allowed. Do you think Indiana Jones movies are banned in Germany because they have Nazi flags in them? Of course not.

An (illegal) distributor of Wolfenstein 3D was found guilty of "public usage of symbols of unconstitutional organisations" in 1999. Certainly it didn´t help that he was distributing the game through a neonazi mailbox, but still. These days, a computer game might qualify as a work of art or of historical education, changing the legal situation, but I wouldn´t count on it.

[edahl1980]

All this wrapping in. Let's face it. Germans were nazis in the years 33-45.
That they choose to ban the swastika and prosecute 98 year old men for serving in their own military 70 years ago is just "more nazi".
If the German army wanted to they could have wrapped Hitler up and made a burrito out of his ass in 24 hours, but they gladly marched on to foreign land causing death from 38 to 45.
Or..... 36 to 45 if we include the condor legion.

So SE or SS isnt gonna change the history. I consider SE(SS) flavour in my army. Does that make me a nazi? No.
But i did like the idea of making heroes the SE units. And they could be random.

[edahl1980]

And about aux. Does anyone use them?
I prefer my own getting the exp and kills.
I never use aux unless i really have to.
Maginot line i got all these railroad guns idling while my paratroops and 88's and butchering bunkers and towers.

[KeldorKatarn]

All this wrapping in. Let's face it. Germans were nazis in the years 33-45.
That they choose to ban the swastika and prosecute 98 year old men for serving in their own military 70 years ago is just "more nazi".
If the German army wanted to they could have wrapped Hitler up and made a burrito out of his ass in 24 hours, but they gladly marched on to foreign land causing death from 38 to 45.
Or..... 36 to 45 if we include the condor legion.

Nice uninformed opinion you have here. Keep it up.

[edahl1980]

All this wrapping in. Let's face it. Germans were nazis in the years 33-45.
That they choose to ban the swastika and prosecute 98 year old men for serving in their own military 70 years ago is just "more nazi".
If the German army wanted to they could have wrapped Hitler up and made a burrito out of his ass in 24 hours, but they gladly marched on to foreign land causing death from 38 to 45.
Or..... 36 to 45 if we include the condor legion.

Nice uninformed opinion you have here. Keep it up.

What part is uninformed? Germans werent the nazis? They didnt cause death and destruction? Inform me.

[KeldorKatarn]

To get colorful: (removed). Anybody condemning an entire people for the deeds of it's regime is the real nazi in the discussion. How about we put all Russians in the gas chamber because of the bolsheviks eh? Or how about the burn all the French since they sent their Jews into german camps eh? How about we torture all British for the fire bombings or impale all Americans for the Atomic bombs. Oh hey, let's procecute all the German officers that risked their lives and got hanged with telephone wires for trying to kill Hitler, many of which would have killed him the 1938 September Movement if Chamberlain hadn't screwed the Czechs over eh?

But hey keep being the stereotype moron that literally takes his history lessons from Indiana Jones movies. Game forum or not, if you think you can insult my countrymen and ancestors here at your whim you've got another thing coming.

[edahl1980]

To get colorful: (removed). Anybody condemning an entire people for the deeds of it's regime is the real nazi in the discussion. How about we put all Russians in the gas chamber because of the bolsheviks eh? Or how about the burn all the French since they sent their Jews into german camps eh? How about we torture all British for the fire bombings or impale all Americans for the Atomic bombs. Oh hey, let's procecute all the German officers that risked their lives and got hanged with telephone wires for trying to kill Hitler, many of which would have killed him the 1938 September Movement if Chamberlain hadn't screwed the Czechs over eh?

But hey keep being the stereotype moron that literally takes his history lessons from Indiana Jones movies.

That is pretty much how it goes. The German population put Hitler in charge, and they got lost. Hitlers action was on behalf of Germany.
Fire bombs and blockbusters was part of the war. Effective? no. But part of the war.
Atomic bombs saved lives. How many we will never know.

As of Chamberlain? He is not responsible for anything the Germans did. Germany and Germans is responsible for their own actions.
Banning swastikas doesnt change history.

[Buffalohump]

I do not defend, admire, or condone what Hitler and the Nazi's did. However I must take issue with the idea that Germany and Germany alone was responsible for his rise and the war. The way that the First World War ended and the terms placed on the Germans by the vengeful allies had a lot to do with Hitler's and the Nazi's rise. The crippling sanctions and reparations placed on Germany by Great Britton and France that left a nation with out hope had a lot to do with Hitler's and the Nazi's rise. The Great Depression had a large effect on Hitler's rise. After Hitler and the Nazi's came to power, the blind eye the west turned to Germany and what was going on during the 30's had a lot to do with the war. The whole Czechoslovakia incident and the West's willingness to so easily capitulate to Hitler's demands certainly encouraged Hitler to think he could launch and win a war of conquest.

I do not play this game out of some gory fascination with the Nazi's. I enjoy it because of the history and because of the difficult problems to solve that the historical scenarios present. I have enjoyed playing all sides that have been made available to play. I personally do not image unit designations one way or the other, for me a German is a German, a Russian is a Russian, etc. However I can understand how some would prefer to not have any representation of the Waffen SS in the game. The current way the game designers handle the issue leaving the decision to individual players seams reasonable to me.

[edahl1980]

I do not defend, admire, or condone what Hitler and the Nazi's did. However I must take issue with the idea that Germany and Germany alone was responsible for his rise and the war. The way that the First World War ended and the terms placed on the Germans by the vengeful allies had a lot to do with Hitler's and the Nazi's rise. The crippling sanctions and reparations placed on Germany by Great Britton and France that left a nation with out hope had a lot to do with Hitler's and the Nazi's rise. The Great Depression had a large effect on Hitler's rise. After Hitler and the Nazi's came to power, the blind eye the west turned to Germany and what was going on during the 30's had a lot to do with the war. The whole Czechoslovakia incident and the West's willingness to so easily capitulate to Hitler's demands certainly encouraged Hitler to think he could launch and win a war of conquest.

I do not play this game out of some gory fascination with the Nazi's. I enjoy it because of the history and because of the difficult problems to solve that the historical scenarios present. I have enjoyed playing all sides that have been made available to play. I personally do not image unit designations one way or the other, for me a German is a German, a Russian is a Russian, etc. However I can understand how some would prefer to not have any representation of the Waffen SS in the game. The current way the game designers handle the issue leaving the decision to individual players seams reasonable to me.

Well written and i agree. In some ways, world war 2 was really world war 1, part 2.
Nazi-Germany was testing the west over and over. Reclaiming saarland from the french, anschluss, munich treaty and breaking the munich treaty. It was all about testing the western leaders.
Danzig or war was supposed to be the end. But rather than invading Germany and ending world war 2 in a matter of weeks the western allies hid behind the Maginot line and allowed Germany to invade and conquer Poland with the aid of Soviet. And then move the same units west. And like you, i am also fascinated by this part of history.

I dont care if Waffen-SS is in the game or not. Panzer corps is about the war in world war 2, and not holocaust. For me there is a line between those 2.
Allthough sometimes both the heer and waffen-SS assisted in the holocaust, at the same time you could have served in either of the 2 without being a war criminal.

[hurly]

That is pretty much how it goes. The German population put Hitler in charge, and they got lost. Hitlers action was on behalf of Germany.

No that is not true

The German POPULATION never put Hitler in Charge, the NSDAP had Results of 2,6% (in 28) and after the Financial Crisis 18,3% (in September 30) 37,3% (in July 32) 33,1% (in November 32) and after Hitler was appointed Chancellor because he was the Candidate of the Strongest Party, he never had the majority of votes. But after the Reichstag Fire on February 27, 1933 Civil Rights were mostly suspended and so since there was no working majority for any Party they went into another election, and the SA (basically a bunch of hooligans under command of the Nazis) surpressed the Sozialists and Kommunists in the Buildup of the March 33 elections. Still with all that the NSDAP got only 43,9 % of the Votes in March 33 which was not enough to gain control. But then came the Enabling Act of 1933 (passed with votes of all parties except the SPD and the KPD) which erased the votes for the Communists and also outlawed many of the Socialist Leaders from the SPD. And only after that the NSDAP had the necessary majority to eliminate the Parliament and make it a ONE Party System.

This is basically a political coup with and against Opportunistic People of Sorts.
-First several of the disappointed common People looked for a glimmer of hope after the Financial Crisis and are instrumental in the Rise of the NEW TOY NSDAP
-Then all the established Parties thought they could control the Nazis and their Loudmouth Buffoon Leaders
-Then in a real unprecedented opportunistic Vote the Middle to Right Paries eliminated the old Opponents from the Left Side of the Spectrum
-And finally they woke up one day being obsolete Marionettes themselves

This is in no way an excuse for all things that happened from 1933 to 1945, but in the beginning it was a matter of Desperation, Arrogance (especially those of the Established Parties and Lobbies of the Economical Leaders) and finally a Matter of Suppression against the Majority of the People, although many of them fell to the Propaganda (today they call it Alternate Facts) of the "charismatic" Nazi Speakers afterwards

And just to take a jab into another more actual situation. People in the USA should remember and think about these Chain of Events really hard nowadays. Once the Train is leaving a Station it is hard to stop it.

Ok sorry for the Semi Off Topic back to your Discussion about SS units in the Game, but I think it is important to state a few basic Facts that seldom get mentioned.

[KeldorKatarn]

Hitlers action was on behalf of Germany.
Fire bombs and blockbusters was part of the war. Effective? no. But part of the war.
Atomic bombs saved lives.

Ok since this turned out to be yet another forum where Allied war crimes can be glorified and no mod does anything about it I'll leave.
I thought this community was different but apparently not.

Anybody who defends the fire bombings and atomic attacks on completely civilian targets as necessary for the war or even saving lives is such a disgusting peace of trash I'll not stay in the same community, especially if that's even tolerated as apparently a normal thing to say while I! am in other sections of the forum being reprimaded for saying "shit" and "silly".

Fuck off Slitherine, seriously.

[hs1611]

OK, this has gone too far now.

In case you guys haven't noticed this topic is about wether Waffen-SS units have a place in the game or not.

If you want to discuss history, war crimes (AXIS or ALLIED), elitness of SS, or any other such thing I suggest, once again, that you go to the Axis History Forum.
There's some nice discussions going on over there.

Having said that I just want to point out that assigning blame for the war on all germans of the time is the same as saying that all americans of the 18th and 19th century were to blame for the native american genocyde (and that's what it was) or the enslavement of blacks.
If someone wants to imply that present day germans should still carry the blame for their ancestors faults, well, see sentence above.

And don't even try to get me started on portuguese colonial history...

Maybe it's time for some MODERATOR to intervene.

[edahl1980]

Hitlers action was on behalf of Germany.
Fire bombs and blockbusters was part of the war. Effective? no. But part of the war.
Atomic bombs saved lives.

Ok since this turned out to be yet another forum where Allied war crimes can be glorified and no mod does anything about it I'll leave.
I thought this community was different but apparently not.

Anybody who defends the fire bombings and atomic attacks on completely civilian targets as necessary for the war or even saving lives is such a disgusting peace of trash I'll not stay in the same community, especially if that's even tolerated as apparently a normal thing to say while I! am in other sections of the forum being reprimaded for saying "shit" and "silly".

Fuck off Slitherine, seriously.

There is nothing to defend. It was war. An ugly war, but a war.
They had a theory that if you hurt the civilian population and infrastructure, then the war will end sooner. It didnt really work out that way, but that was the idea.
Atomic bombs on the other side ended the war with Japan. A war that was killing alot of people. Imagine how many lives would have been lost if they were to invade mainland Japan.

[Rudankort]

OK guys, I'm locking this up, because it is getting out of control. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for many, but this forum is not the right place to discuss it. Let's concentrate on the game here. Thanks for understanding.