Protected hoplites and their uses

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:33 pm

I keep finding myself leaving these guys out of my Pyrrhic list when I build one .Is there any point to buying them vs buying more pike ? or a situation that they would be better than pike . I only get protected so no armoured love FYI both can be average or poor , the hoplites can be undrilled . what are these guys good for they seem to be a bit pointless when other options are open am I missing something ? thanks for the advice

jlopez · Post by **jlopez** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:51 pm

Quite satisfying if used against BGs with HW as the armour isn't relevant. For that army, I would tend to agree that pikes are preferable.

Julian

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:54 pm

Well they are reasonably solid troops against a whole host of opponents, though not as effective as the pikemen and are cheaper per file frontage than the pikemen so can lengthen your frontage.

Possible uses would be as a "holding" part of the line using the pikemen as the main offensive tool.

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:20 pm

Well they are reasonably solid troops against a whole host of opponents, though not as effective as the pikemen and are cheaper per file frontage than the pikemen so can lengthen your frontage.
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I have seen them used once in an Alexandrian Mac Army as Superior. They were crushed by some Legionaires. Armored is so much better.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:56 pm

used once in an Alexandrian Mac Army as Superior. They were crushed by some Legionaires

They must have been reasonably unlucky, unless they go disrupted they are on even POA's in combat.

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:22 pm

used once in an Alexandrian Mac Army as Superior. They were crushed by some Legionaires

They must have been reasonably unlucky, unless they go disrupted they are on even POA's in combat.

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Not so sure, they are likely to loose the impact being down a POA, and will be down at least a -1 on the cohesion to loosing to impact foot, with likely another -1 for two more hits than received, and possibly even a -3 for this plus the total hit count greater than 1/3. Then they get hammered in the melee down a POA. Pike are more resistant and have a better chance to stay steady at impact. Even with overlaped lines the Pike can wear down the Legionaires as they will then have the melee POA advantage. The longer line of spear doesn't help at impact.

In this case they did roll bad and went broken by melee........

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:39 pm

Well thanks for the info I was looking at them and thought they seemed ok against some troops but not so good at stopping impact troops . I felt the no armour really hurt them in melee . if you went through hypapist's like that then poor pike has probably got a better chance . since they are cheaper I will go with those . thanks guys

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:49 pm

Whilst I understand the discussion is probably over, that is not going to stop me commenting

Protected Spear are absolutely rubbish. They can be useful cheerleaders, but don't expect them to win any combats against anything you are likely to see on a wargames table.

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:58 pm

I was worried about that seems a shame since so many armies average protected spear should be at least solid foot troops its why i liked the pyrrhic list in others sets but its looking like later macedonians are the hvy pike army or everybody will just play selucid or ptolemys for the flavor . I was hoping that pyrrhic's or early successors would be good .but oh well

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:28 pm

Dave is jaded 'cos he puts his irregular ones in the wrong place or puts them 1 rank deep to fill a flank where they get shot or charged by Knights before they can pass a CMT to contract. Get them in the right place doing the right job and they are fine.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:34 pm

He's not still trying that is he?

Shot one of his BGs to buggery in Helsinki when he tried that - and they were a barrier so his LH had to run a long way to get away from my oncoming Cv ...

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:04 am

ok I am game I'll try then 3 deep against other heavy foot see how they do hopping they will hold against some of the impact foot (non armoured ) and pike for long enough for me to attack else where thats all I am looking for

madmike111 · Post by **madmike111** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:56 am

I thought protected spear are good value, cheap and can stand up to cav that is 3 times the price. Best used against heavy armoured horse where the ‘armoured’ or protected work exactly the same, i.e. not at all.

I am more than happy to take cheap undrilled protected hoplites up against superior knights. On average the hoplites will win and can absorb a lot more failed death rolls than the knights.

In my last (and my first) tournament half the armies were knight based.

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:12 am

How does the knight/cav poa for armor not work? are you saying the POA's cancel each other out?(spears in 3 ranks not disrupted)

madmike111 · Post by **madmike111** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:22 am

How does the knight/cav poa for armor not work? are you saying the POA's cancel each other out?(spears in 3 ranks not disrupted)

What I meant is that armoured foot is no better than protected foot when facing heavy armoured horse.

pezhetairoi · Post by **pezhetairoi** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:24 am

To answer the original question, there is some point.
I've played a pyrrhic list a few times. Its a matter of frontage and cost. For 48pts you can have 6 average drilled OffSp (3 wide), or 8 average drilled pike (2 wide), or 12 poor drilled pike (3 wide). What do you put your faith in?

Well If you need the frontage, and I find (at 650pts, 25mm at least) that your army can look a little thin on the table, the extra battle line width can come in handy on the refused flank. It would be a toss-up for me, poor pike versus average hoplites, same frontage - same points. However if dollar value is an issue, 6 bases of hoplites is 24 figures and 12 bases of pike is 48 figures. Pike could cost you twice as much money, and take twice as long to paint. It is also twice as heavy in the carrying case. You are also more likely to injure yourself on the pikes -- ever hear of "macedonian hand" ? Ouch.

The advantage really comes through in the 8 base hoplite BG (4 wide), a 64 point purchase. You'd need 2 BGs of 8 average pike for that same frontage, at a cost of 96pts. If you aren't going to maneuver them, try undrilled. Its not that bad, and it saves points.

They have a place in a battle plan -- to take up room, hold the line, and not die quickly. Stick them on an end to stretch your line to the nearest rough ground and cover your flank. A few extra base widths can make a difference. One extra base width can be the difference between you overlapping your opponent for an extra 2 dice or not. Alternatively they can be bait. If the Impact foot are heading straight for them, try rear support and a commander. Likely the impact foot will have to match them base for base, so your pike at the other end of your line may get some softer targets. The hoplites will likely hang-on a lot longer than you think.

Theses guys can have an important role if they are included in your plan, and can offer some advantage.

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:13 pm

One thing I have found is that things tend not to "die slowly" in FoG. Most combats go at roughly the same speed, so putting out your protected hoplites to "lose slowly" to say Romon Legions doesn't really work. The "losing slowly" was a great DBM tactic but not so great in FoG in the conventional sense. What is worse is that the hoplites blowing up next to your phalanx can force, potentially fatal, morale checks on the pahalax...

What it does mean to me in FoG is that your slightly refused flank of hoplites is tough enough to force the enemy to committ a real effort by significant troops to defeat them so it can draw battle winners away from other parts of your army. Then your battle winners have to do a better job against the enemy than what he is doing to your hoplites. I think this is the real strength of protected spear, you have to committ GOOD infantry against them to be certain of beating them.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:11 pm

ethan wrote:One thing I have found is that things tend not to "die slowly" in FoG. Most combats go at roughly the same speed, so putting out your protected hoplites to "lose slowly" to say Romon Legions doesn't really work. The "losing slowly" was a great DBM tactic but not so great in FoG in the conventional sense. What is worse is that the hoplites blowing up next to your phalanx can force, potentially fatal, morale checks on the pahalax...

What it does mean to me in FoG is that your slightly refused flank of hoplites is tough enough to force the enemy to committ a real effort by significant troops to defeat them so it can draw battle winners away from other parts of your army. Then your battle winners have to do a better job against the enemy than what he is doing to your hoplites. I think this is the real strength of protected spear, you have to committ GOOD infantry against them to be certain of beating them.

That's an excellent point, Ethan, and one that has taken me some time to internalize. One cannot count on "losing slowly" in FoG (especially when the BGs commited to combat are larger than four bases). The rhythm of FoG v. DBM is quite different.

Marc

pezhetairoi · Post by **pezhetairoi** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:37 am

Really?

I have had fights go on for 7-8 turns of melee. Even poorly matched ones. I've found that a general joined and some rear support can really drag it out.
If both sides keep passing cohesion tests .... With hoplites a test at impact can be scary, but after that unless your dice really suck it's not that bad, even versus Romans -- the POAs are matched, your unit is a good width for overlaps, and there will likely be few -1s on the CT.