seleucid 800pts

[hobbsy]

Hi, im new to FoG, played a couple of games with my pontic vs early imperial roman (won), ancient brits(draw) and early cathaginian (won)

Just looking at building a seleucid army

so far i got
1x IC
2x TC

1BG*4 CV elite armoured drilled lancer Sw
1BG*6 Cata
2BG*8 Pk Sup Prot Drilled
1BG*8 Pk Avr Prot Drilled
1BG*10 Pk Avr Prot Drilled
1BG*6 MF Prot Avr Drilled Off Spear
1BG*6 HF Prot Sup Undrilled Imp Ft Sw
1BG*6 LF Unprot Avr Undrilled Bow
1BG*6 LF Unprot Avr Undrilled Sling
1BG*4 LH Unprot Avr Undrilled Bow
1BG*4 LGH Unprot Avr Drilled Jav Light Spear

Would it be wise to take away some pike and put the points elsewhere? More MF or some elephants
This is the first time using a diffrent army so be kind,

Cheers fir all and any input

[WhiteKnight]

I use a seleucid army a lot though funnily enough never 800pts as i game in 25mm and so I have played 1000pts doubles and 650 pts singles games.
I would always aim to have two bgs of MF and like thorakitai and thracians in that role. I have a feeling two bgs of LF will be plenty and I prefer archers and javelinmen. The companions as 2bgs of 2 bases each to rear support other bgs of horse I have found invaluable...dont use them in combat until you have to though...this also makes the army harder to break as it bumps up the attrition level! I do use elephants and as many pike as poss. Its worth experimenting with 4xTC instead of the IC, too!

Martin

[hobbsy]

I was thinking of using 4xTC but have always found that having an IC invaluable. Always seem to have a BG jstr in the 12" range and need that for them to pass cohesion. Was also going to use the 6 agema and 4 companions together as a solid block of 10, with a TC in front rank with the comps. Nice 1,2,3 reroll if im not mistaken

Would you suggest taking out the galatians for some thorakitai? Does the MF have that much more advantage? I understand terrains or skirmish armys will be my downfall.

Thanks for the reply

[dave_r]

Because of the amount of Superior (and elite) troops, who are drilled, this is one army I don't use an IC with - I simply can't get the army to be usable on the frontage required. That is with the ubiquitous peasant slingers and bowmen as well!

One piece of advice I would give is to put the Pikes in 12's. In 8's they are just to vulnerable to both missile fire and to losing a base and hence the inevitable destruction.

If you are going to use good MF then I would suggest if you only have one BG then use the best- go for the Thorakitai rather than the Thurephoroi.

Your generals cost 150 pts. Whilst I take your points about an IC, 4 TC's at 140 pts is much better than an IC and 2 TC's. It also gives you 10 points which funds the upgrade of MF I mention above

Let me know how you get on as I like using Seleukids.

[hobbsy]

Hmm intresting point, will play test the 4x TC's and 12 strong BG's

I should be taking my seleucids to a game this friday, if i get all the pike painted as got them all today at colours. Only 136 pike to paint :'(

[Scrumpy]

I prefer pike in 10s, that way you can lose a base and still be 4 deep.

[Ghaznavid]

One piece of advice I would give is to put the Pikes in 12's. In 8's they are just to vulnerable to both missile fire and to losing a base and hence the inevitable destruction.

The problem I've found with 12 strong phalanxes is that they are actually more likely to lose a base. 2x12 cover the same frontage as 3x8 and presumably take the same number of hits. Just the 8 strong phalanxes spread those hits over 3 death rolls, as opposed to only 2 with the larger pike blocks.

[dave_r]

I haven't found that to be honest. There are two instances and it is probably worth separating them:

Shooting - using a three wide frontage you are likely to get at most four dice from shooting (If you get more you are obviously surrounded or in bigger trouble anyway), given you are hit on a 4+ this should result in no more than two hits, which means you can't lose a base. More importantly, you have no minus one on the CT either. If your opponents gets a little lucky then you just have to not throw a one... An eight strong base pike block will likely have a max of three shooting dice, meaning that one turn in two it will take two hits and also suffer a minus one on the CT.

Close Combat - Pikes are likely to be at a plus against most things, therefore you want the maximum dice for each BG so that unlucky dice don't cause you to lose the combat - hence the three wide is a bonus. You are slightly more at risk from your opponent getting lucky and losing a base, but hey, you can't have everything.

there is a further consideration in that if you happen to rout your opponent in front of you, twelve strong pikes are much less at risk at getting "double overlapped" if they pursue. With three eight strong pike block they are likely to go different speeds and hence get picked on and destroyed piecemeal before you can reform your line. only having two BG's who are less vulnerable helps immensely (i.e. six dice against ten is better than four dice against eight)

[ethan]

I base my choice on two factors:

- Do I think I need the extra BGs to make the army numbers up? I find that it is pretty easy to get to 12 BGs IF you have the pikes in 8 element groups and I like dropping 3x8 average pikes as one entire quarter of the army (usually the second placement).

- Do I want to put a general with these guys to fight, in this case 12s clearly win out as your general helps more troops.

The last time I ran Seleucids I used a hybrid and had the average in 3x8s and a single 12 element block of superiors (which was an obvious general magnet).

One thing I think about more is having BG (that I hopefully have at a decisive point) that maiximze the value of generals. In that Seleucid list I had 4xTCs and planned to have them with a 4 element Elite group of Cv, 12 elements super Pikes, and a 6 element block of super Cataphracts.

This line of thinking also has me wondering if having a single "big" group of say 6 knights would be worthwhile fora medieval army, maybe even a 6 block of lancer cavalry for some armies. You have to handle it carefully but it is a lot of punch.

[WhiteKnight]

Agree with dave_r about running the phalanx in 12s. Also, just better by a touch to try to run the army in an odd no of battlegroups. I would recommend the thorakitai over galatians as they are drilled troops, have armour and Off Sp capability which makes them ok in the open but still with a good "off-road" performance...operating two MF as a supporting pair of BGs has edged me a couple of games!

Martin

[hobbsy]

Thankd for all the input. I think ill take the 4TC's option and go with 2BG*8argy and 2BG*10phalanx

Will let u all no how it goes