Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[Ceek]

McGuba's latest voluminous and well reasoned reply about the need to balance historical accuracy with challenge and playability.

And this, folks, is why this mod is as good as it is.

[Kiane]

Hello! I played your mod a few years back (I made some posts about it here in like 2014, got an MV by wiping out the Soviets and hunkering down in Fortress Europe). And I figured I'd give another crack at it. I have some questions though:

1) Are there any new versions coming out soon? I'd hate to start it and then suddenly, "Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.9!"

2) I remember you had difficulties making a large number of events because of a cap on the number of scripts available. Did you ever get around that?

3) I'm going for a DV this time. Is turning around and taking out Britain first before a major push on the Soviets still a decent strategy?

4) Any general advice for 1.8?

Glad to see you still chugging at it even after all this time.

[McGuba]

Welcome back!

1) Are there any new versions coming out soon? I'd hate to start it and then suddenly, "Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.9!"

No worries, I will not release a new version any time soon. I have made some changes to v1.8, but will make some more later and then I need to run a test play. It will take a minimum of 2-3 months, I guess.

2) I remember you had difficulties making a large number of events because of a cap on the number of scripts available. Did you ever get around that?

Not really, but making full use of the existing number of AI zones, I managed to add many new events since the early versions. Now there is at least one event message in almost every turn.

3) I'm going for a DV this time. Is turning around and taking out Britain first before a major push on the Soviets still a decent strategy?

I think so, General Werner is just running such a test in the AAR section of this forum. However, I have to warn you that v1.8 has become more difficult than the early versions (last time you played v1.3 if I am right). You have to balance the limited resources between the different fronts very carefully. I guess most players fail to achieve any kind of victory in this mod.

4) Any general advice for 1.8?

Not really, the concept is still the same, but as I said it is more challenging than the previous versions and the AI is will react to the player's actions smarter and more agressively. There will certainly be some (nasty) surprises. I nearly doubled the number of scripts since the first versions and many of these scripts are aimed to make the AI more challenging. There are some more (historical) restrictions in v1.8 like the fuel crises from early 1942. Make sure you always read the in-game messages as they usually contain useful hints.

[JimmyC]

I'm keen to have a crack at 1.8 - i just got a new computer after my old one died over 1/2 a year ago mid campaign (and mid battle report ).

I'm going to go along the same theme as my last campaign whereby i will try and liberate all occupied territories, but will try not to encroach on the Allies home countries (ie. UK and Russia are out of bounds). I was doing it strictly last time, but there are some really indefensible positions (Narva comes to mind). So i will take a more practical approach this time and cede territory here/annex territory there, based on a defensible position.

Whilst i am confident of success early on, it will be interesting to see if i can hold out later in the war. By the way, does capturing the oilfields in the Caucuses also stunt Russia's forces or does it just give you bonus income?

[Mountaineer]

So JimmyC lost core units and his computer? Tough game.

[empedocles]

Hi all,

I finally managed to finish this mod and boy.... I got my butt kicked!I ended up having to use cheats (some prestige here and there) just to keep myself on track and, even with that help, I only managed to get a Marginal Victory (defeat of the russians + hold cities in germany) in the last freaking turn.

Summary_
-The strategy of focusing on Leningrad and the caucasus was the right one and by the end of 1943 I was holding half of Italy along and "only" had to conquer the most Eastern victory hexes in Russia. the rest was already mine. However, this proved to be too difficult. Russians kept sending reinforcements and I was lucky to hold them off.
-In the west the allies landed in the western tip of France and kept pushing from there, by cheating a Little I was able to put volksrumm and anti tank units to delay their advance but even with that they managed to reach the Rhine and I was lucky this game didn¿t last a couple of more turns or they would have broke through my West-Wall and invaded Germany. All my units (the few ones left) were busy in the far east.
-Italy was a mess. Mote cassino held its ground way longer than in history but once the canadians managed to break through the Adriatic shore I couldn't held there. By turn 99 they already conquered north italy and were starting to push east into Vienna. I literally had nothing to stop them with.
-The air battle looked pretty much won in the west by the end of 1943 but then DDay happened and my planes were oblitterated from the skies by those pesky american fighters.

I really enjoyed your mod and it really captures the "allied countries built 4 times more tanks and airplanes than axis" tagline.

I will replay it again (my wife is gonna kill me, but hey, we are already married!!).

Some things I could have made different:
-Upgrading units. I was not aware that upgrading made so much sense in the game.
-Do not loose afrika so easily. In fact, I will destroy malta right off the bat.
-Stop sending submarines to the atlantic. It's a waste of time and they only last 1 or 2 turns if you are lucky,
-Drive directly into Moscow.

Again, thanks for everything!

[Yrfin]

Only for general understanding about wasting time for passing BF ...
How many real time is required for completion of BF (I mean barbarossa) ?

[JimmyC]

So JimmyC lost core units and his computer? Tough game.

It was an old computer on its last legs, so it was partly expected and i backed up all my photos and important files. Still quite annoying to lose my save games though (should have thought to back it up too).

@Yrfin - it depends how long you take for your turns and whether you cycle through every unit to ensure you've made an action. Based on my experience I would estimate around 35 hours - although i am quite slow as i tend to overthink things.

[JimmyC]

I am now around turn 10 of my first playthrough of 1.8. A few observations:

1. I noticed that some Romanian troops have German insignia on their unit panel indicating they are part of the German army, even though the name and visual of the units is a Romanian infantry. I assume this is an error. I can take a screenshot of it if you want.
2. AA now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree anymore. There are so many wimpy 2cm Flak units and little else!! I assume this is deliberate. I noticed already it makes it harder on the western front...
3. AT now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree (only realised this after wasting prestige on upgrading a few of them to 5cm). Again i assume this is deliberate, but it really hurts (much worse effect than the AA change)! What am i to do with all the useless 3.7cm Pak? I am unsure on what you set the total unit count, but there is strong incentive to just disband all these units if it would take you under the unit size cap. That way I could buy something actually useful. As it is i save any that are close to 2 star for upgrade to Stug when it comes available. The rest i just throw in as meat shield and don't care about. I wonder it is even worth to spend prestige on normal reinforcement for this unit? Any suggestion on how to use these units?
4. I noticed you changed the pill boxes to be direct fire rather than artillery style. I like this change as they now seem to pack more punch against direct assaults.

<EDIT> I previously played v1.6 so am comparing to that.

[hugh2711]

1.8 is definately harder than previous incarnations. I agree about the AA with less 88's i have to upgrade more and also about the AT, I save the best for stugs when they are available. It also seems some units have less heroes or are at less strength which makes the start slightly slower and more expensive e.g. hence it is slower to remove the bialystock pocket etc the 1000 point penalty for tangier is alot for little.

[JimmyC]

Regarding flak, I think that some of the flak units should be in the same upgrade series as their self propelled versions. For example, the SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 are just the 2 cm Flakvierling 38 and 3.7 cm FlaK 37 mounted on tracked vehicles, right? Whilst the SdKfz 10/4 is just a mounted 2 cm FlaK 38.

This would make the flak more useful and give much needed mobile air cover on the Eastern front.

[McGuba]

By the way, does capturing the oilfields in the Caucuses also stunt Russia's forces or does it just give you bonus income?

Yes it does. After the capture of the Caucasus oil fields the Soviets get about 20-25% less new units. But it does not affect those units which had appeared before the capture of the oil fileds and are still on their way to the frontline (which may take several turns). The capture of the Moscow area reduces Soviet reinforcements by about 15-20% and Leningrad by about 10-15%. If all three are taken the Soviets should get less than 50% of the scheduled units they would get otherwise. But these are just very rough estimates and depend on the year as well. Mainly new units appearing after 1943 are affected.

Also, the capture of the oil fields mainly affects tanks and aircraft and the population centers mainly affect infantry (but not only).

Hi all,

I finally managed to finish this mod and boy.... I got my butt kicked!I ended up having to use cheats (some prestige here and there) just to keep myself on track and, even with that help, I only managed to get a Marginal Victory (defeat of the russians + hold cities in germany) in the last freaking turn.


-The air battle looked pretty much won in the west by the end of 1943 but then DDay happened and my planes were oblitterated from the skies by those pesky american fighters.

Sure historically the Luftwaffe was literally destroyed in the West in the first few months of 1944 after the introduction of the long range US escort fighters in numbers. Until then they held up quite well aginst the mostly unescorted bombers. But in early 1944 some fighter units suffered 200% losses in a matter of a few weeks requiring urgent reinforcements with inexperienced green pilots, who in return had even less chance to survive.

In the mod it can be avoided in a few two ways, though:
- the successful invasion of Britain - if there are no enemy bases, there are no enemy fighters to operate from
- the early defeat of the USSR - after which all fighters can be upgraded to the latest types and transfered to the West. Then they have a good chance to resist the might of the US Air Force.
- evacuating all the air units from the West and completely giving up the air space to the Allies - in this way the figther force can be saved and used elsewhere, but as a result the Allies will cause significant prestige loss with their unmolested bombing campaign.

I will replay it again (my wife is gonna kill me, but hey, we are already married!!).

Please forward my sincere apologies to your wife, but she has to understand that conquering new lands and hearts is a very important part of our lives.

1. I noticed that some Romanian troops have German insignia on their unit panel indicating they are part of the German army, even though the name and visual of the units is a Romanian infantry. I assume this is an error. I can take a screenshot of it if you want.

Yeah, I already noticed this silly bug and fixed in my work-in-progress next version. Thanks anyway.

2. AA now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree anymore. There are so many wimpy 2cm Flak units and little else!! I assume this is deliberate. I noticed already it makes it harder on the western front...

Yes, it is deliberate, historically the singel turret 2cm AA gun was by far the most produced one with some 120.000 made, compared to the 20.000 "88"s for example. Also it remained in heavy use until 1945. I wanted to better reflect it in the mod rather than just allow/encourage every player to upgrade to the best one at a discount price.

For instance according to a source, in February 1945 the even elite LSSAH armoured divison had 45 single barrel 2cm AA, 7 quad 2cm, 15 3.7cm and 18 8.8 cm guns so they had more single barrel 2 cm AA guns than all the other types combined. And it was one of the best equipped divisions bearing the name of the Führer himself.

And yet, it is still possible to upgrade most or all AA guns to the 88 one in the mod, but only at the cost of other important upgrades.

3. AT now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree (only realised this after wasting prestige on upgrading a few of them to 5cm). Again i assume this is deliberate, but it really hurts (much worse effect than the AA change)! What am i to do with all the useless 3.7cm Pak? I am unsure on what you set the total unit count, but there is strong incentive to just disband all these units if it would take you under the unit size cap. That way I could buy something actually useful. As it is i save any that are close to 2 star for upgrade to Stug when it comes available. The rest i just throw in as meat shield and don't care about. I wonder it is even worth to spend prestige on normal reinforcement for this unit? Any suggestion on how to use these units?

Hm, yeah I see your point here and I tend to agree. The aim was similar here than with the AA guns - historically the 3.7cm and 5cm AT guns remained in use until the end of the war and I just wanted to better reflect it in the mod, too. But they were usually not used in the first line in their intended role against tanks, as being ineffective, instead, were rather used against lightly armoured vehicles or bunkers or MG nests and stuff like that. So I also think I should change it back to normal as I do not really want players to disband these only to free up unit slots.

4. I noticed you changed the pill boxes to be direct fire rather than artillery style. I like this change as they now seem to pack more punch against direct assaults.

Yes, they are better now.

It also seems some units have less heroes or are at less strength which makes the start slightly slower and more expensive e.g. hence it is slower to remove the bialystock pocket etc the 1000 point penalty for tangier is alot for little.

I did not really reduce the strength of the starting units, maybe only for a few and I certainly did not take any heroes away. But there might be some more Soviet units at the start which makes it harder.

The Tangier penalty is mainly there to compensate for the added 50 prestige per turn given for the new important city Trondheim in Norway. (I wanted to add Trondheim to the list of important cities to make Norway a bit more important and interesting as historically a large number of German soldiers were stationed there fearing an Allied invasion which never came, whereas in the previous versions of the mod it was possible to evacuate it with little to none side effects.)

In fact, 50pp means players get nearly 5000 extra prestige in 99 turns in v1.8, which is a significant amount. Now players start the mod with less prestige, but get more during the whole war so prestige flow should be a bit more steady instead of starting reach and running out midgame. At least, that was the theory.

My impression is that many players, especially first time players, tend to overspend in the first year driven by the high starting prestige and the many easily captured cities, only to run dry mid-game, which results in them losing their interest and/or losing the war. This change attempts to partially fix it at least.

[hugh2711]

anyone: has anyone got any suggestions as to where to place the new brandenburgers that would make best use of thier camo trait and other characteristics? fly them to perm or kirov perhaps, I dont want to waste thier low strength on the usual head on confrontations.

[Yrfin]

There are so many wimpy 2cm Flak units and little else!! I assume this is deliberate. I noticed already it makes it harder on the western front...

What am i to do with all the useless 3.7cm Pak? Any suggestion on how to use these units?.

Small guns need a buff. IMHO

What about:
1. give to small AA/AT move=2
2. reduce alittle cost (about 10 %)
3. give Camo trait ?

[JimmyC]

anyone: has anyone got any suggestions as to where to place the new brandenburgers that would make best use of thier camo trait and other characteristics? fly them to perm or kirov perhaps, I dont want to waste thier low strength on the usual head on confrontations.

I am using them to assist in taking Cyprus and will then also use them to assist in my planned amphibious landing on the coast of Syria. As they only have strength 5 i consider them somewhat disposable though - so i am willing to risk them getting annihilated.

3. AT now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree (only realised this after wasting prestige on upgrading a few of them to 5cm). Again i assume this is deliberate, but it really hurts (much worse effect than the AA change)! What am i to do with all the useless 3.7cm Pak? I am unsure on what you set the total unit count, but there is strong incentive to just disband all these units if it would take you under the unit size cap. That way I could buy something actually useful. As it is i save any that are close to 2 star for upgrade to Stug when it comes available. The rest i just throw in as meat shield and don't care about. I wonder it is even worth to spend prestige on normal reinforcement for this unit? Any suggestion on how to use these units?

Hm, yeah I see your point here and I tend to agree. The aim was similar here than with the AA guns - historically the 3.7cm and 5cm AT guns remained in use until the end of the war and I just wanted to better reflect it in the mod, too. But they were usually not used in the first line in their intended role against tanks, as being ineffective, instead, were rather used against lightly armoured vehicles or bunkers or MG nests and stuff like that. So I also think I should change it back to normal as I do not really want players to disband these only to free up unit slots.

Yes, i was pretty sure you were going for realism - and in reality you couldn't just upgrade a 3.7cm to a 5cm Pak, unlike some other equipment. However in this case i think the added realism is detrimental to the gameplay (there really is little point in keeping such units given their poor stats). So i would recommend to put them in the same upgrade tree again depending on other players feedback. If you wanted to try to balance it a bit, you could always increase their price to make it a bit more expensive when upgrading.

2. AA now doesn't seem to be in the same upgrade tree anymore. There are so many wimpy 2cm Flak units and little else!! I assume this is deliberate. I noticed already it makes it harder on the western front...

Yes, it is deliberate, historically the singel turret 2cm AA gun was by far the most produced one with some 120.000 made, compared to the 20.000 "88"s for example. Also it remained in heavy use until 1945. I wanted to better reflect it in the mod rather than just allow/encourage every player to upgrade to the best one at a discount price.

For instance according to a source, in February 1945 the even elite LSSAH armoured divison had 45 single barrel 2cm AA, 7 quad 2cm, 15 3.7cm and 18 8.8 cm guns so they had more single barrel 2 cm AA guns than all the other types combined. And it was one of the best equipped divisions bearing the name of the Führer himself.

And yet, it is still possible to upgrade most or all AA guns to the 88 one in the mod, but only at the cost of other important upgrades.

Unlike with the AT, this change to AA isn't as bad. This is because the 2cm AA still fills a purpose. Therefore although it makes the game harder, i can live with this change. And it makes prestige management and strategy even more tricky as you have to decide whether you are going to spend the funds to upgrade guns or not.

By the way, what did you think of my proposal to allow the AA to be upgradable to the self-propelled variety of the same type?

[empedocles]

Hi all,

Any hints/suggestions on how to break through at El Alamein? it seems impenetrable. Should I wait for the English to attack me?
thanks

[GeneralWerner]

Hello,
it is hard work. Get all your ranged firepower in the area including the Italian ships and your artillery.

The strategic bombers supress the anti air. The tactical bombers supress the artillery. The artillery and ships supress the infantry or the anti tank division and then your tanks can attack without taking serious damage. If you repeat this several times you can break it. If you do this in 42 you need patience and after that you will face a strong British tank army coming from Egypt. I tried once to take over the defense line from the British and hold it against the British tanks with entrenched infantry and anti tank covered by artillery. It was a desaster.

If you attack El Alamein in 44 with a Panther tank and the same strategy you can break through quickly even without Italian ships.

[empedocles]

thanks for the info. I will try to do so. Maybe in another game I'll go ahead for the naval invasión of palestine.

[McGuba]

By the way, what did you think of my proposal to allow the AA to be upgradable to the self-propelled variety of the same type?

Interesting idea and I see the logic here as well. Currently in the mod a towed AA gun and a SdKfz 7 tractor together costs about the same as a mobile version like the SdKfz 7/1 or 7/2 which makes sense. But since they are not in the same family an upgrade costs between 250-280 prestige which is undoubtedly a bit high. However, if they were in the same family an upgrade would be only like 100 prestige what I consider a bit too cheap for a far more useful mobile AA. I guess if it was like that many players would upgrade most, if not all towed AA to the mobile version. But again, while historically there were only a few hundred mobile AAs produced of each type, the same caliber towed AAs were produced in tens of thousands. So if players upgrade them in numbers it would create an unhistorical army set up which would lead to an unhistorical gameplay.

For reference:
2cm towed AA - 140.000 produced
SdKfz 10/4 (mobile AA with 2cm gun) - 610-1054 produced

2cm towed quad gun - some 10.000 produced
SdKfz 7/1 (mobile AA with 2cm quad gun) - 319 (or maybe 750-800) produced

3.7cm towed AA gun - 20.000 produced
SdKfz 7/2 (mobile AA with 3.7cm gun) - 123 (or maybe 1.000) produced

As one can see these mobile AA guns were very rare compared to the towed version so from a historical point of view it is not a good idea to encourage their use in this mod. I think it is better to leave it as it is and then players should upgrade only one at max for each armoured spearhead. There should be enough prestige available to do so.

[Slimak81]

Is it possible to make a mod so called allied eddition? as a USSR player with custom scripts for allies ?
playing turn 15, well spend half of a day having fun with Blitzkrieg, doing good in East and loosing Africa and almost all fleet on $$ convoy route area