Suggested unit trait: Scoot and shoot (Move and fire)

[bru888]

This artillery unit should have "Scoot and shoot" (well, "Move and fire" to be more dignified) indicated as a unit trait. I say "scoot and shoot" as opposed to "shoot and scoot" because that is what it can do: move and fire. It cannot fire and move.

To me, this is an important unit trait for artillery, yet it does not appear in the Unit Traits window:

Screenshot 2.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 2863 times

A few of the guys were talking about this in another thread, speculating whether the "Move and fire" feature, and lower cost, are enough assets for small artillery to overcome deficiencies in strength and range. Could a mobile pack of this particular gun out-perform a smaller amount of larger artillery?

Now the question in my mind is, when I go to purchase artillery, which of the smaller models have "Move and fire"? It should be shown in the Unit Traits window.

[Andy2012]

Would also be a nice specialisation. "Quick gunnery" - shoot arty and move. And have switch units switch and fire in the same turn, as in Panzercorps. Makes the 88 AT deadly.

[bru888]

Would also be a nice specialisation. "Quick gunnery" - shoot arty and move. And have switch units switch and fire in the same turn, as in Panzercorps. Makes the 88 AT deadly.

Your comment sparks the question: Was this "Move and fire" new with Blitzkrieg? You are suggesting "Shoot and scoot" as a specialization, which is a good idea, but "Scoot and shoot" is already in the game. Has it been always in there for some small artillery units?

[bru888]

Would also be a nice specialisation. "Quick gunnery" - shoot arty and move. And have switch units switch and fire in the same turn, as in Panzercorps. Makes the 88 AT deadly.

Your comment sparks the question: Was this "Move and fire" new with Blitzkrieg? You are suggesting "Shoot and scoot" as a specialization, which is a good idea, but "Scoot and shoot" is already in the game. Has it been always in there for some small artillery units?

By the way, here's the link that you provided in the other thread, explaining "Shoot and scoot": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-and-scoot

But, back to the original thought: "Scoot and shoot" (Move and fire) is in the game and apparently assigned to some small artillery units. Which ones? It should be shown in Unit Traits.

[I see that this turned into a double-post somehow. I was listening to my wife talk about stuff at the time. ]

[GiveWarAchance]

It's kind of like towed artillery enjoying the benefits of mobile arty, but only for small guns cause they are easier to move about.
When do mobile arty come out in the game? I guess not until 42 or 43 except for that one rickety thing that looks like a metal phone booth with a gun stuck through it and only has 3 rounds in PanzerCorp.

[Andy2012]

It's kind of like towed artillery enjoying the benefits of mobile arty, but only for small guns cause they are easier to move about.
When do mobile arty come out in the game? I guess not until 42 or 43 except for that one rickety thing that looks like a metal phone booth with a gun stuck through it and only has 3 rounds in PanzerCorp.

"Phone booth with a gun stuck through it" is probably the best description of the Sturmpanzer I ever read around here. +1 to you, Sir!

Mobile arty is around pretty early in Blitzkrieg and totally worth it. Even though the way the devs have implemented the Stug III is kinda ahistoric (it was never mobile arty, rather bunker buster and later tank buster), it is still fun.

[bru888]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

In this file are three scenarios to test the small, "move and fire" gun theory. You play as the Germans and the objective in each is to capture the five U.S. flags. If you do it in 15 turns, you win. If the U.S. captures your German flags, you lose. If time runs out and neither has captured all five flags, it's a draw.

The first scenario is Big Gun vs Big Gun. The sides are so evenly matched that this will almost certainly end in a draw.

The second scenario is Single German Small Gun. The Germans are at a disadvantage being on the attack (the alternative is to hang back and let the U.S. attack, but time will probably run out before you can take the U.S. flags). The reason why they are at a disadvantage is that the U.S. big gun can sit and not be disrupted by terrain whereas the German small gun, moving through terrain, is lowered in efficiency and therefore not as effective. Also, in limited visibility, the small gun's move and shoot capability was offset somewhat by concealment. You will probably not win this scenario either.

In the third scenario, however, the Germans have a chance to win because in this scenario, Double German Small Gun, the Germans have two small, mobile guns. That seems to turn the tide. I beat it in 12 turns. Bear in mind that the small gun costs less than half of the big gun. For the cost, I can imagine what it can do in packs.

Scenario notes: Five different terrain types are provided to see their effects. Recon planes are stationed for visibility; don't bother moving them. It's important to preserve some infantry strength due to artillery's diminishing effects as enemy units are decimated. There is some AI cheating here and there when it bombards where it should not be bombarding; don't you be tempted to do the same!

Final note: If you play any of these just for fun, play Double German Small Gun. You have a chance in that one if you play well, and I had fun playing it.

German & US Equal Big Guns:

German & US Equal Big Guns.jpg (57.55 KiB) Viewed 2773 times

Small German Gun:

7.5 cm leIG 18.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 2773 times

Big German Gun:

10.5 cm leFH 18.jpg (56.29 KiB) Viewed 2773 times

[Andy2012]

@bru: Nice, well done. Wont be able to test for the next few days. But your results so far suggest that a small pack of mobile arty (leichtes Infanteriegeschuetz, light infantry gun) is a viable attack force? Would be a valueable addition to the tactical toolkit.

[bru888]

@bru: Nice, well done. Wont be able to test for the next few days. But your results so far suggest that a small pack of mobile arty (leichtes Infanteriegeschuetz, light infantry gun) is a viable attack force? Would be a valueable addition to the tactical toolkit.

I'm suggesting that, at half the cost of larger artillery and a lower support level required, this small gun (and others like it? - which ones are they? - that's the point of this thread, that they should be labeled as "Move and fire" in Unit Traits) can be quite effective in numbers especially in open territory.

Try playing the Single German Small Gun scenario. The U.S. actually pushed me back the couple of times I tried it, so gun vs. gun, the small gun is no match for the big gun.

But in the the Double German Small Gun scenario, just the addition of one more small, mobile, move and fire small gun turns the table and makes victory possible. Sure, it's an unscientific test - more of a demonstration - but it reinforces my thinking. I may design a scenario with a wolf pack of small guns versus an elephantine enemy!

Anyway, the point is, this is an important distinction in artillery - the ability to move and fire in one turn - and it should be shown as a Unit Trait.

[Andy2012]

@bru: Tried the small arty in Eriks Blitzkrieg 41-42 custom campaign, too. I must say (even though I havent progressed far yet, just a few turns) - good investment. I have formed strike teams of two or three light infantry, 1 light AT and 1-2 small arty. Effective, cheap and if you push along roads, very fast. Still have the two superheavy K18s in the back. BTW, try Eriks new campaign. Worth it.