Give 3.7 PaK36 a Chance.

[Yrfin]

In a historical perspective light towed AT (like 3.7 PaK36) was useless against a Heavy tanks like Matilda II, B1 Bis, KV. But 3.7 PaK was not bad against light tanks and plays your role in real war and must play role in game. But in game having 3.7 PaK36 looking like waste of core slot for it.

So, maybe need a change role of 3.7 PaK36 ?
Multi-purpose Grenadier'39 Unit: switchable to 3.7 PaK36.
It's historical (every Inf.Regiment has a AT Kompanie).
I dont know is this will be playable ?

Any sugestion ?

[terminator]

It would be to be able to use antitank in support as in Oob :

Screenshot 63.jpg (126.59 KiB) Viewed 3485 times

He seems to me of somebody had used antitank guns as artillery (support fire possible).
You could make 2 versions of the same Antitank gun : version standard (AT normal) and version artillery for support fire (switchable but not purchasable)
The 88s was used as AT , AA and artillery. Imagine if you could switch twice (AT <-> AA <-> ART).

[Yrfin]

Youre mean make 3.7 AT switchable to 3.7 Arty for support fire ? Hm, its not looking good. 3.7 calibre not good enought for support fire. 8.8 - different story. Its good for arty support, becoz have big calibre, and i already have triple-switch 8.8 in my list.

[terminator]

You could make a mixture.
A moutain infantry with a 3.7 AT gun.It could be considered an improvement for the infantry with better values in antitank.
Here is a fast made example :

CaptureAT.JPG (28.17 KiB) Viewed 3472 times

[terminator]

Another example :
Soviet guards with Katioucha support (as in Unity of Command) :

SovietGuards.JPG (27.09 KiB) Viewed 3457 times

(fast made)

[Yrfin]

You could make a mixture.
A moutain infantry with a 3.7 AT gun.It could be considered an improvement for the infantry with better values in antitank.
Here is a fast made example :

The attachment CaptureAT.JPG is no longer available

For my moutain i already have 7.5 art support.

ger_art_7.5cm_FK16_nA_Geb_AT.png (16.47 KiB) Viewed 3457 times

[Yrfin]

Another example :
Soviet guards with Katioucha support (as in Unity of Command) :

SovietGuards.JPG

(fast made)

Sorry, but Katioucha support for infantry, looking like shi.., hm, unrealistic.
Katusha was stand-along unit, like PanzerWerfer 42.

[terminator]

For my moutain i already have 7.5 art support.

A single man is not sufficient for a standard of artillery especially in the mountain

[Cerberus51]

One thing I don't think the game properly reflects in the equipment file is where a unit is repurposed or a weapon gets improved. One example is US fighters where the P-47 was changed from an escort fighter role to a fighter bomber and the unit values should change to reflect this.

In the case of the Pak36 a hollow charge projectile was developed which meant it could destroy almost any tank at short range. This could be worked into the game by having a second Pak36 in the equipment file with an appropriate start date, a higher hard attack value and the same cost and family so the upgrade would be free. That would be one way to improve the usefulness of the Pak36 and extend its useful life.

[captainjack]

I would prefer more usable towed AT.

Some German reports From France rated the French 25mm as better than the PaK36 as an AT gun. While the 25mm was a good gun, this suggests the PaK36 was a bit rubbish, although you have to remember that the Germans were firing at well armoured French tanks while the French were firing at poorly armoured German tanks and this could have made a difference. The Russians have two versions of the 45mm AT gun, so you could have a later version of the PaK36 if you liked.

Personally I think of the older AT guns being incorporated into the infantry units as they were replaced by 50 and 75mm specialist AT units, so it's quite reasonable to assume that the Grenadiers/HW units have enough (older) AT guns to be able to switch to provide useful AT support.

Other units switching to weak artillery can be OK - HW units switching from direct attack to artillery (supporting mortar and MG fire) are useful but because they have low ammo and weak attacks they are not overpowered.

I've tried a few things to make towed AT a bit more usable. Making the Italian 47mm switch to artillery (I've seen reports that it was used as field artillery role) with 2 range was a bit too powerful as artillery gains experience so fast. 1 range would have had the same issue, but SA3 or 4 in place of 2 seems to be enough to recognise it's direct fire artillery role without overpowering it.

In my experience, the thing that makes the biggest difference without overpowering AT is increasing move to 2 as this allows it to get into action and stay in contact, which is almost impossible with 1 move. It would be nice to have faster entrenchment (similar to Infantry), but this can't be modded, but a point or two increase in initiative, GD or AD would probably increase usefulness without unbalancing the game

[Yrfin]

I would prefer more usable towed AT.

Some German reports From France rated the French 25mm as better than the PaK36 as an AT gun. While the 25mm was a good gun, this suggests the PaK36 was a bit rubbish, although you have to remember that the Germans were firing at well armoured French tanks while the French were firing at poorly armoured German tanks and this could have made a difference. The Russians have two versions of the 45mm AT gun, so you could have a later version of the PaK36 if you liked.

Personally I think of the older AT guns being incorporated into the infantry units as they were replaced by 50 and 75mm specialist AT units, so it's quite reasonable to assume that the Grenadiers/HW units have enough (older) AT guns to be able to switch to provide useful AT support.

Other units switching to weak artillery can be OK - HW units switching from direct attack to artillery (supporting mortar and MG fire) are useful but because they have low ammo and weak attacks they are not overpowered.

I've tried a few things to make towed AT a bit more usable. Making the Italian 47mm switch to artillery (I've seen reports that it was used as field artillery role) with 2 range was a bit too powerful as artillery gains experience so fast. 1 range would have had the same issue, but SA3 or 4 in place of 2 seems to be enough to recognise it's direct fire artillery role without overpowering it.

In my experience, the thing that makes the biggest difference without overpowering AT is increasing move to 2 as this allows it to get into action and stay in contact, which is almost impossible with 1 move. It would be nice to have faster entrenchment (similar to Infantry), but this can't be modded, but a point or two increase in initiative, GD or AD would probably increase usefulness without unbalancing the game

Sorry about Italians, but using small AT guns in attack with Infantery was only German tactics.
And move 2 must be add to only for light AT German Forse, like ability use 8.8 AA switch in AT mode. No more any heavy AA switched to AT except German 8.8. Sorry, US and UK guys

[Yrfin]

For my moutain i already have 7.5 art support.

A single man is not sufficient for a standard of artillery especially in the mountain

I've got a Maultier in reserve too

ger_horse_Maultiere.png (27.71 KiB) Viewed 3399 times

[TSPC37730]

There are some creative uses for the 5th 3.7 PaK36. It can be used to guard a bridge crossing in the defensive Piatek scenario. It should be backed by an artillery unit in case of an infantry attack - which can result in favorable ambushes in some cases. Further, since it's an AT unit, it can be used to occupy secondary enemy city or airfield hexes. This can be of value when you're advancing in the '40 scenarios in France & the low countries. Using the Pak unit to grab an objective frees up your tanks to advance or occupy more important tactical positions.

Admittedly, other units can be used to fulfill the needs above, and the value of the unit can certainly be questioned. There's no rule that says you can't simply highlight the unit, press "D" on your keyboard & then spend the extra prestige on another unit. I prefer not to do this. I try to keep the unit & deploy it in Piatek & other defensive situations - again backed by artillery. This allows the unit to rack up experience & kills. With luck, I might even snag a first hero. The unit will certainly spend a considerable amount of time on the shelf during the early years until '42 when the Marder & StuG III families are available as upgrade options. I'd rather upgrade my Pak unit with some level of experience than start entirely from scratch with a green unit.

[Yrfin]

Further, since it's an AT unit, it can be used to occupy secondary enemy city or airfield hexes.

Wow ! Ability occupy enemy city and airfilds with AT is the most awful opportunity in PzC.

Only Infantery and Recon have right to occupy objects (maybe Special Units too). No tanks, no AT shi.. in City.
IMHO.

[captainjack]

Sorry about Italians, but using small AT guns in attack with Infantery was only German tactics.

I've seen reports describing aggressive use of German AT guns in support of infantry attacks (including manhandling them considerable distances). The way the report on the LoneSentry site is written makes it clear that using specialist AT guns for other roles was viewed as a German tactic worth commenting on rather than something everybody did with AT guns.

Having said that, there's some US wartime training videos showing use of infantry weapons which includes using the 37mm AT gun in a bunker busting role (which I think was the original purpose of the WW1 37mm infantry guns). I believe this is an example of using infantry unit's guns, rather than using an AT unit in the Germans did.

However, I have seen the Italian 47 described as a dual purpose field gun/AT gun. So this is an OK small field gun with useful AT capability rather than a specialised AT gun used creatively in emergencies or when there were no tanks around but a useful field gun with useful AT capability. A quick search just now pulled up quite a few references that described it as a dual role gun, but a few that only describe the AT role.

[Intenso82]

It unit from what mod?

I've got a Maultier in reserve too

ger_horse_Maultiere.png