More Overlaps

[dave_r]

The Battle Group in the middle facing downwards has charged the two battle groups facing up - i.e. one with no marker behind it and one with the green marker behind it. The bases are slightly offset. So - how many dice are there in melee?

One opinion is that the rules state on page 98 "all bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight" Therefore all four bases of the steady BG facing upwards should fight along with three bases from the disrupted BG facing upwards - one base directly as it is in contact with its front edge and another base as an overlap.

Another opinion is that one of the bases of the steady BG is actually an overlap and therefore as this would be an internal overlap it shouldn't count.

Thoughts?

[prb4]

To be fair neither of those choices were our final decision, however I won't give away what we finally decided...

Peter

[petedalby]

I think the answer starts on page 77 and is concluded on pages 92 / 93.

The chargers cannot conform (77) so fight as if they had conformed (92).

I believe the chargers will have 2 dice vs each enemy BG. The enemy BGs will have 4 and 3 dice respectively.

What did you decide?

[dave_r]

We decided that the chargers had two dice against each and the steady BG had two dice and three with the disrupted one.

[petedalby]

Well Dave - as the song says - 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

If the BG with the yellow marker on the left of the picture wasn't there, in the following turn the 8 bases would conform to the 4 bases that charged. But since that conform is not possible, because of the BG with the yellow marker, they fight as if conformed.

So on balance I am happy with my answer. I can see no justification for yours?

[philqw78]

I think you are wrong Pete. Just because next turn the non-chargers conform doesn't mean they fight that way this turn and it would be illegal for the chargers to conform to that position in it's own turn even if there was nobody else in the way

[paullongmore]

My suggestion, on the night, was that since you fight as if conformed and I believe the conform would be for the left hand unit to be in front contact (staggered) and the right hand unit to be in overlap.
This would give the charge receiver 4 and 2 dice respectively.
The chargers dice using the same argument would be 4 dice against the left unit, however, I can see arguments for 2 dice vs each enemy BG.

[prb4]

We decided that the chargers had two dice against each and the steady BG had two dice and three with the disrupted one.

I seem to remember that we decided that when conformed the charger and the undisrupted BG would face each other and the disrupted one would be an overlap.
Therefore we fought the melee as if they had conformed. 4 dice vs 4 dice and 2 extra for the overlap from the other unit. Which was fortunate for you as it allowed the disrupted Bg to run away before the MF could charge them!

Peter

[petedalby]

I think you are wrong Pete.

Fair enough - but you don't say why?

From the photo the charger has 2 front rank bases - let's call them A & B. The non-disrupted bases we'll call 1 & 2 and the disrupted bases 3 & 4.

B appears to be in front edge contact with 3 - so they fight each other with 4 in overlap.

A appears to be in contact with 2. So 2 can fight with 1 in overlap.

On conforming - the charging BG is the one that should conform - but it can't. If it could conform it would conform to the enemy bases in contact (P77) - again these are bases 2 & 3 - allowing 1 & 4 to be overlaps.

[philqw78]

Looking at the pictures closer you are right

[papsterdino]

does the defender with more bases decide who is not fighting on their side, thus making the final outcome?

[dave_r]

does the defender with more bases decide who is not fighting on their side, thus making the final outcome?

Only in the impact. This was in the melee. And there are only actually two bases in contact.

[papsterdino]

7 dice v 4 then ....

[terrys]

On conforming - the charging BG is the one that should conform - but it can't. If it could conform it would conform to the enemy bases in contact (P77) - again these are bases 2 & 3 - allowing 1 & 4 to be overlaps.

The Rule actually states:
"The active players BGs must pivot and/or slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact."
The first bullet then states:
> Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position.
Next bullet:
> The BG must end its conform in a normal formation except that each file step forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy.

Looking at the picture All the attacking bases are in contact and defending bases 1,2 and 3 are in contact.
Would it therefore be reasonable to accept that base A should line up with base 1, and base B would line up with base 2.
This would fulfill the criteria of conforming to "enemy bases in contact" (i.e. bases 1&2)
It would also fulfill the requirement of bullets 1 & 2.
None of the other bullets are relevant.

This would leave all bases of the disrupted BG out of combat for the melee phase

[philqw78]

But B does not conform to a base it is in contact with nor an overlap position your way Terry

[terrys]

But B does not conform to a base it is in contact with nor an overlap position your way Terry

The rule doesn't say that each BASE must conform to enemy in contact - it says that BATTLEGROUPs must conform to ENEMY BASES in contact.
Since in this instance there are 3 enemy bases that could be conformed to - the minimum move to a conformed position is to line up bases A & B to enemy bases 1 & 2.

[petedalby]

The rule doesn't say that each BASE must conform to enemy in contact - it says that BATTLEGROUPs must conform to ENEMY BASES in contact.
Since in this instance there are 3 enemy bases that could be conformed to - the minimum move to a conformed position is to line up bases A & B to enemy bases 1 & 2.

Hi Terry - if the 2 enemy BGs were contiguous I would agree with you. Unfortunately they are not.

Your paragraph above contains 2 errors. Dave has already confirmed that only 2 enemy bases are in contact - not 3.

You have omitted the word the from the rule. A BG must confirm to the enemy bases in contact. Since there are only 2 enemy bases in contact they are the 2 that fight with the other 2 in overlap.