I have the following question. BG A is fighting BG B. BG C is same army as BG B and is facing same direction as BG B. There is a gap of less than 1MU between BG C and the combat.
AAA
AAA CCC
BBB CCC
BBB
BG C wants to join combat, can it slide to become an overlap to BG B. If not it is my understanding it could either turn 90 degrees and charge next turn (flank charge) or could wheel and charge this turn (not a flank charge because it includes a wheel within 1MU of enemy)
Joining combat
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Assuming it has space, it would wheel towards AAA and move to an overlap position (sliding half move if necessary), but only if it was allowed to perform a 'double wheel'.
It can never charge the flank, unless it is a legitimate flank charge - which it could be if the rear of the front rank of CCC is at least level with the front of AAA.
It can never charge the flank, unless it is a legitimate flank charge - which it could be if the rear of the front rank of CCC is at least level with the front of AAA.
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MarkSieber
- Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:23 pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon US
If I read the rules on p. 75 correctly, corner-to-corner or corner-to-side contact is not legal:
Is this correct?
To make a legal overlap, one must move the BG close enough to get within half a base width and then slide in:
p. 75 says "It is exempt from any requirement to pass a CMT to wheel or move less than the full distance." Does this mean the shift into support contact can include a 'free' wheel? In other words, are moves 1 & 2 part both of the shift, or would you need to make move #1 (the second wheel of Terrys' Double Wheel) before making the shift (#2)?
Is this correct?
To make a legal overlap, one must move the BG close enough to get within half a base width and then slide in:
p. 75 says "It is exempt from any requirement to pass a CMT to wheel or move less than the full distance." Does this mean the shift into support contact can include a 'free' wheel? In other words, are moves 1 & 2 part both of the shift, or would you need to make move #1 (the second wheel of Terrys' Double Wheel) before making the shift (#2)?
The section on 'SHIFTING' goes as follows:
If you can legitimately move to the overlap position by using a double wheel (which may be a complex move) then that would be allowed - but no shifts!
Note the last line about double wheel ..... If you make a double wheel, then you can't shift sideways into an overlap position.An advance can include a “free” sideways shift in the following circumstances only. The extra distance is not measured:
• Up to one base width sideways if all bases move the full distance straight forward (excluding the shift) and there are no enemy within 6 MUs at any point in the move. This includes the enemy camp but not an enemy commander’s base.
• Up to half a base width sideways: - If this is necessary to avoid “clipping” terrain or friendly troops, and at least one front corner of the battle group moves at least 1 MU (excluding the shift).The shift cannot be greater than is necessary to avoid the obstacle.
- To move into an overlap position against an enemy battle group that is already in close combat to its front.
Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions,
contractions or turns.
If you can legitimately move to the overlap position by using a double wheel (which may be a complex move) then that would be allowed - but no shifts!
yes 3 options for getting in:
1. If not aligned then wheel once and shift up to half a base
2. If already aligned then just advance and shift up to half a base
3. Use a double wheel if allowed to get into an overlap position with no shifts at all
As TS says you cannot charge if the front base if the target file is in contact with enemy already.
So as long as your troops were a battle line together then the idea is it should work easily as you will be aligned and the most that BBB will have shifted to conform is half a base. So if CC was set up a a BG to the side of BB then they can definitely get into overlap position. If CC was a separate entity it can get more tricky - which makes sense.
Si
1. If not aligned then wheel once and shift up to half a base
2. If already aligned then just advance and shift up to half a base
3. Use a double wheel if allowed to get into an overlap position with no shifts at all
As TS says you cannot charge if the front base if the target file is in contact with enemy already.
So as long as your troops were a battle line together then the idea is it should work easily as you will be aligned and the most that BBB will have shifted to conform is half a base. So if CC was set up a a BG to the side of BB then they can definitely get into overlap position. If CC was a separate entity it can get more tricky - which makes sense.
Si
Simon Hall
"May your dice roll 6s (unless ye be poor)"
"May your dice roll 6s (unless ye be poor)"
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MarkSieber
- Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:23 pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon US
Thanks Gents--Terry for the clarification and reminder on double wheels, Si for the simple list.
So, let me know if this is correct:
If two BG's charge a single enemy BG at the same time, A to the front, B wheeling and moving into corner contact the side of an enemy BG.
then B conforms to support position in the Maneuver Phase:
However, if A were already in contact with C, B could not reach the overlap from the same starting position (unless it was within half a base width.)
So, let me know if this is correct:
If two BG's charge a single enemy BG at the same time, A to the front, B wheeling and moving into corner contact the side of an enemy BG.
then B conforms to support position in the Maneuver Phase:
However, if A were already in contact with C, B could not reach the overlap from the same starting position (unless it was within half a base width.)
Looks correct. If you charge both thjey will both count as frontal contacts. You will have more dice - 4 to 2 say - and get to choose which ones to drop. So if B is stronger in the charge choose those to roll with. Then all are conformed as frontal contacts and overlaps.
As for B it could get there to overlap in manouvre it depends on the geometry in detail. In your diag, it suggests B could simply advnace and shift up to half to make contact but perhaps not, but without a scale you can't tell for sure.
In essence, the system is set up to favour troops in BattleLines. So if B and C where together at the outset you can see its a non issue and it only gets awkward because you have the operating separately.
It is true that at times simultaneous charges are a better way to bring your troops back together - which makes sense to me - "oi you lot, and you lot, go get them!" seems a command that would generally get the two BGs helpoing each other out. Whereas "you lot wait to see how they do" "followed by "now go and help" could be less certain in getting them all in.
That said as long as BGs are not undrilled and too separated I must say I generally find they can make it to overlaps without too much trouble.
Si
As for B it could get there to overlap in manouvre it depends on the geometry in detail. In your diag, it suggests B could simply advnace and shift up to half to make contact but perhaps not, but without a scale you can't tell for sure.
In essence, the system is set up to favour troops in BattleLines. So if B and C where together at the outset you can see its a non issue and it only gets awkward because you have the operating separately.
It is true that at times simultaneous charges are a better way to bring your troops back together - which makes sense to me - "oi you lot, and you lot, go get them!" seems a command that would generally get the two BGs helpoing each other out. Whereas "you lot wait to see how they do" "followed by "now go and help" could be less certain in getting them all in.
That said as long as BGs are not undrilled and too separated I must say I generally find they can make it to overlaps without too much trouble.
Si
Simon Hall
"May your dice roll 6s (unless ye be poor)"
"May your dice roll 6s (unless ye be poor)"
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MarkSieber
- Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:23 pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon US
Thanks, Si.
What has been made clear to me in this thread is that a BG can charge corner to side and make a subsequent adjustment into an overlap position, but moving directly to overlap does not allow a similar adjustment, depending instead, as you say, on the geometry in detail.
In future, I'll provide a scale reference
--in the hopefully unlikely event that I have more rules questions. The vast majority of questions are answered in the rules, it's getting my mind around the details that's more the problem. Thanks to all for this excellent resource.
What has been made clear to me in this thread is that a BG can charge corner to side and make a subsequent adjustment into an overlap position, but moving directly to overlap does not allow a similar adjustment, depending instead, as you say, on the geometry in detail.
In future, I'll provide a scale reference
--in the hopefully unlikely event that I have more rules questions. The vast majority of questions are answered in the rules, it's getting my mind around the details that's more the problem. Thanks to all for this excellent resource.