Slogkrieg

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Andy2012
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Andy2012 »

adherbal wrote:What difficulty level are you guys playing on? These reports simply don't match my own experience with the game, so I wonder if the problem instead lays with poor feedback about how the scenarios (and/or game) is meant to be played or whether people are using the wrong difficulty levels.

Please have a look at the Dunkirk Let's Play/AAR I'm putting up:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 73&t=74884

At no point does this feel "slogkrieg" to me. I'm constantly on the offense and making good progress. Yes the Allies put up challenging resistance whever I run into a line of defenses but otherwise there wouldn't be much of a game. Reducing the difficulty level should solve that. If these videos show the same kind of gameplay you are experiencing and disliking, I'd like to know what would have to be different to make it enjoyable for you.
Also quite interesting to see your unit composition. I never use Heavy Inf and Heavy Fighters, but prefer the Heavy Arty. Usually go 2 Pz III, 1 Pz IV, 1 Stug, 1 Sturmpanzer, 1 Light AT, 1 Para, 2 Stukas, 3 or 4 Fighters, 3 Heavy Arty (1 FK 170, 2 SFh), rest is mechanized regular infantry. Only use Waffen SS unmechanized 2x for support. I believe this is a really mobile force and when I attacked the Red Army, it was mostly 5 stars already. Only had AA and recon because they were free with side objectives. Usually try to concentrate all my tanks, mobile arty, Stukas, Fighters and elite paratroopers in 1 pincer, which is usually the dagger aiming for the enemy's heart. Feels Blitzkriegy ("klotzen, nicht kleckern", pour not dribble, as Guderian said) and pretty close to the real thing. 8)
Shards
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Shards »

I always find people's preferences interesting for this game. My force when I did Dunkirk last was:

1 x Inf 40
2 x HInf 40 (Mech)
2 x Para
1 x PzKw III
1 x PzKw IV
1 x 8,8
1 x 17cm K18
1 x Sturmpanzer
1 x Arado
1 x 109
1 x 110
3 x JU 87
kondi754
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by kondi754 »

My core forces during Dunkirk:
1 x HInf 40
1 x Eng 39
4 x Inf 40
1 x SdKfz 232/8R
1 x PzKw IIIG
1 x PzKw IVC
1 x PzKw 38(t)A
1 x 10,5cm leFH18 (mot)
1 x Sturmpanzer
1 x 8,8cm FlaK37 (mot)
2 x Bf 109E
1 x Bf 110C
2 x Ju 87B
Andy2012
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Andy2012 »

Interesting. Why Use HeavyInf? I only see them as slow and expensive, mortars are kind of useless. Also takes up a lot of supply.
Almost forgot, have 1 Engineer also. For Moscow, I fill up with Mountaineers (Gebirgsjaeger), but just as blocking forces in the south.

If this would be 1942 or especially 1944-45, I would have used some 88s as AT and some AA. Right now, I just keep the free Bofors around my heavy arty firing positions. Usually concentrate these for sieges. I mean, if I am always attacking, especially heavy AT guns are always in transport. Also, fighters are good scouts, protect my flimsy Stukas and can occasionally knock out weakened enemy AT guns. That way, they are five stars in Moscow. If that core works for you guys, I dont want to belittle it. But I always opted for mobility (regular Inf, fighters) instead of units you hardly use (AT and AA) in an offensive setup.
adherbal
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by adherbal »

AI Scripting

We're constantly trying to make sure the scenario's do not force you to play them then one specific way, as in solving a puzzle. This is the reason why the briefings and objectives are fairly broad, assuming that players can take their own approach in how to achieve the overal strategic objective. What worked in reality would generally work in the scenario.

In Blitzkrieg scenarios, we've specifically scripted the AI armies to respond to outflanking and bypassing. For example in Dunkirk, if you ignore and bypass the Lille army (French First Army) completely they will indeed counter-attack toward your (most likely undefended) rear area. If you let this happen its most likely game-over because resolving the ensueing mess would seriously screw up the time table :) You have to put some sort of pressure on the force you are trying to envelop or they will not just sit still and let it happen!

To quote Wikipedia about Lille:
Meanwhile, Erwin Rommel had surrounded five divisions of the French First Army near Lille. Although completely cut off, the French fought on for four days under General Molinié, thereby keeping seven German divisions from the assault on Dunkirk and saving an estimated 100,000 Allied troops.
I also wonder if you guys are expecting to win every scenario on the first playthrough. I would expect part of the fun in these kind of strategy games is to try various different approaching and see what works best. If you want to win every time, that's what difficulty levels are for? And this also includes restarting when things go wrong. In the example above, when the Lille army attacks your rear, you can attempt to turn back and deal with that but in all honestly you have failed the objective already at that point.

I do agree the "kill all" objective is a dangerous one. I don't think it's really an issue at Dunkirk because the Allies will retreat to Dunkirk on their own if you handle it right. For Kiev however we'll change it to "kill X out of Y" instead of "kill all". Mopping up the pocket took significant effort in reality so that is intentionally part of the scenario, but searching for individual units should not become a burden.


Garrison Unit

That's an interesting idea. We'd have to make sure this unit is useless in (offensive) combat however, even as a cheap way to absorb attacks by enemy units. A couple of ideas come to mind: unable to launch attacks, unable to repair, slow movement (stick to roads & rails), possibly never retreat (get killed off more easily), highly vulnerable to artillery fire. I feel even with all this players are going to end up using them to soak up attacks however, so we'll have to see if it works in practice.

Scenarios usually have a number of basic infantry units for this purpose at the moment. It's also strongly encouraged to include some (unmotorised) in your core force rather than only buying "cool stuff". The CP system is there to force a balanced core force, the right mix of quantity and quality.
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Andy2012
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Andy2012 »

Dont worry, I guess we all have a very high tolerance for frustration and difficult battles. Otherwise, why play OoB and other wargames?
(Seriously, dont be angry, adherbal. You guys are doing a great job. Dont let the basement dwellers get to you...)
If you lower the bar for "Kill XX units", that should solve all problems. Apart from Dunkirk and Kiev, Blitzkrieg worked like a charm for me.
Garrison unit - just make it an (italian, romanian) allied AI unit that pops up there and stays stationary. I mean, you already have these implemented for Greece, so just put them there. This is just for future DLCs, especially Afrikakorps. Wouldnt tinker too much with Blitzkrieg now.
Shards
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Shards »

Andy2012 wrote:Interesting. Why Use HeavyInf? I only see them as slow and expensive, mortars are kind of useless. Also takes up a lot of supply.
They fill two roles for me. Firstly, I know that if I put them on a point, they're very likely to hold it as the AI doesn't like just throwing Infantry at their guns (which they will do to force back standard Inf). Secondly, given all the AT guns scattered around France, they give me an alternative for breaking an emplacement as they'll often knock 4 SP off basic Inf rather than having to repair my tanks
mhladnik
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by mhladnik »

I like where the discussion is going, and support the offered solutions ("kill X out of Y" for Kiev seems just the thing). Just also make sure the Italians do their job in Greece and we're golden ;)
adherbal
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by adherbal »

If anyone has a savegame from which the Italians remain idle, please send it. I've tested it again a couple of days ago and the Italians are attacking fine for me. They're somewhat careful, but certainly make progress against the Greeks.
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mhladnik
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by mhladnik »

I will check when I'm home, there should be one, I think.
Andy2012
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Andy2012 »

Shards wrote:
Andy2012 wrote:Interesting. Why Use HeavyInf? I only see them as slow and expensive, mortars are kind of useless. Also takes up a lot of supply.
They fill two roles for me. Firstly, I know that if I put them on a point, they're very likely to hold it as the AI doesn't like just throwing Infantry at their guns (which they will do to force back standard Inf). Secondly, given all the AT guns scattered around France, they give me an alternative for breaking an emplacement as they'll often knock 4 SP off basic Inf rather than having to repair my tanks
Yeah, I have my Stukas for that. 8)
My regular inf can also hold lines and chokepoints, way cheaper. But I guess you know more about the AI than I do.

(Also, would be a great throwaway line in general conversations and meetings. 'How do you handle backwards compatibility when recoding?' 'Yeah, we have Stukas for that' :mrgreen: )
kondi754
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by kondi754 »

adherbal wrote:If anyone has a savegame from which the Italians remain idle, please send it. I've tested it again a couple of days ago and the Italians are attacking fine for me. They're somewhat careful, but certainly make progress against the Greeks.
At this point, I play in Rising Sun (Morning Sun finished), check specialization tree in the Far East 8) but I remember Italian army remained idle during beta testing, I reported this fact and sent savegame.
mhladnik
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by mhladnik »

Here's my Greece savegame, at the end of the play. The Italian units haven't moved much as you see, and I had to destroy the enemy myself.
Attachments
[Blitzkrieg] Greece.zip
(18.56 KiB) Downloaded 125 times
bjarmson
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by bjarmson »

I like heavy infantry and always have a couple. They are great in both offensive and defensive mode, though I admit the mortar ability is rather lame, but I rarely use it. I always upgrade them with halftracks, which allows them to move rapidly yet easily destroy routed and understrength enemy units. They become in essence Panzergrenadier units, strong, quick moving infantry.
Andy2012
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by Andy2012 »

bjarmson wrote:I like heavy infantry and always have a couple. They are great in both offensive and defensive mode, though I admit the mortar ability is rather lame, but I rarely use it. I always upgrade them with halftracks, which allows them to move rapidly yet easily destroy routed and understrength enemy units. They become in essence Panzergrenadier units, strong, quick moving infantry.
Honestly, never used the halftracks as well. Trucks only. In Panzercorps, I am a halftrack man. In OoB, you are always short on resources. In Winter War, even trucks were a luxury. And since I think elite units are a better investment and more useful, I invest in elite reinforcements (mostly, not always. Of course not for Aux units.) Its a bit sad that there a some troops I will probably never use because they are either too expensive or cumbersome (e.g. 88 AT and AAs).
bjarmson
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by bjarmson »

Halftracks provide great maneuverability and both offensive and defensive strength. They are great at attacking routed or understrength units, which truck transport simply cannot do. Being transported in trucks means one move with zero offensive capabilities and greatly decreased defensive ones. Halftracks even resist artillery and air attacks fairly well. I always prefer 2 mechanized heavy infantry units to 4 regular infantry units (irregardless of experience) unless the terrain hampers movement (lots of woods or mountains). Because they make so many attacks they tend to gain experience stars quickly. A 4/5 star heavy infantry unit is really badass. These Panzergrenadier (the term actually wasn't used till 1942) can keep up with armor, providing a bit more of a blitzkrieg feel (though the game mechanics constantly stifle that).

Being short of resources can be very frustrating. In certain cases where I think the developers are unrealistically frugal (most of the late US scenarios in Pacific and Marines, some of the Russian Blitzkrieg ones) I use the cheat codes to give myself the resources (RPs), and occasionally even the command points (CPs), that they should have. Cheating, perhaps, but sometimes you have no alternative if you want a realistic battle rather than an artificially contrived "playable" one. In Leyte for instance, once you upgrade your units to reflect what their current status should be (1944 infantry and Marines, newer model tanks, aircraft and ships) you have little left to repair units. The game in campaign mode should automatically upgrade units to reflect this fact (I think there is a jump from 1942/43 to 44), but it doesn't, so I "cheat" to correct this deficiency. Same thing holds true in some of the Blitzkrieg scenarios. I can't afford more aircraft, armor, or an 88, but I know for a fact the Germans actually had them. Cheat code time. I try to use the codes judiciously to correct what I think are mistakes, but sometimes the developers seem so tethered by what they consider "playability" that the scenario is only tenuously related to the actual battle. A matter of opinion of course, but it is usually easy to find online the WWII Order of Battle (an actual listing of the units involved in an engagement), so look it up for yourself if you think the developers are being overly stingy in RPs or CPs and don't be afraid to use them occasionally, particularly if you want a more realistic scenario. Offensives just weren't launched into 3/4 to 1 disadvantages in men and equipment. That's tantamount to suicide in real world, yet is regularly used by the developers to achieve their notion of "playability".
calmhatchery
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by calmhatchery »

I dont undertsand why somebody calls this campaign SLOGkrieg. For me personally Blitzkrieg is one of the best DLc in ORDER of battle. Some people are still mentally with the panzer corps.
Of course it is not a easy campaign. I play on the major level and for me this campagn is very good balanced...It is cool that I have to think how strategy I have to use on every scenario...Panzer CORPS after some of scenario is boring.Order of battle NOT :)
For me it is still one of the best strategy II game...cheers
bjarmson
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by bjarmson »

Calm down calm (sorry couldn't resist). I coined the term. I've never played Panzer Corps, though I've played many war games since when they were only cardboard counters on a foldout map-board. If you like the Blitzkrieg scenarios as is, fine, have fun. Obviously some of us feel something is wrong about how it plays and think many of the scenarios have little to do with the actual battles depicted. If you go back and actually read through the several threads related to this, perhaps you might understand what we are talking about.
hrafnkolbrandr
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by hrafnkolbrandr »

Holy crap, nobody is complaining about the difficulty. People are beating the scenarios just fine- using a methodical slog.
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Re: Slogkrieg

Post by kverdon »

Yes, it is not about the difficulty, it is with the scenario design. The Dev's admit they make the objectives purposely nebulous as to add to perceived "replayability". Sorry this does not work. ANY scenario should be beatable on the first try with the right combination of forces and tactics. The need to find the "golden key" to meet arbitrary "Simon Says" requirement is tedious and frustrating. You see it permeate form OOB game to OOB game. It is not creative it is LAZY. Forcing the player to replay the scenario over and over to finally find the "golden key" is not fun, FYI. Blitzkrieg just brings this to the forefront. There are some changes to the core code that could help but they really, really, need some of the thoughtful, historical background that made the Panzer Corps DLC (for the most part...) very enjoyable and immersive. Things that need to be changed in the main game:

1. Air Combat and combat in general. The 10 vrs 10 yields 5 losses but 10 vrs 5 yields 3 losses needs to go. This goes for the entire combat system. It tends to over favor the defender. The fact that I cannot eliminate an air unit outnumbered 40 - 1 in strength, in 4 attacks is crazy. The fact that I can have an air unit escorted by 3 fighter units and still take 1/2 damage is even crazier.

2. Fix the Supply and Zone of Control system. Units under 3 strength and units out of supply should not exert any zone of control. Disorganized units or those out of supply should not be able to interdict supply.

3. Treat out of supply ground units like Air Units. After 1 turn out of supply they should take incrementally greater losses so after 5-6 turns out of supply they should be gone.

OOB Pacific was good but flawed.
OOB Battle of Britain was fun but highlighted the Air-to-Air Issues.
OOB Marines showed some cracks in the design with the scenarios relaying on arbitrary crutches to make the scenarios "Challenging"
OOB Blitzkrieg showed some major flaws as have been highlighted here.
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