BRITCON 2008; Manchester, UK

[shall]

1 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
2 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
3 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
4 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
5 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
6 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
7 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
8 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
9 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
10 Legio HF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
11 Bow MF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
12 Bow MF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
13 LH LH Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4
14 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
15 sling LF Unprotected Superior Drilled Sling - - - 4
16 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
17 LH LH Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
18 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
19 Limitanei MF Protected Poor Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
CinC IC - - - - - - CinC 1
Subs TC - - - - - - - 2

It is always interesting having some distance from and event ... not having seen it in action of course may give me a false impression, but for what it worth here's how I see this.

1. This is a very brave and aggressive army design for top players only. It will need to be used well, but if you do so it will have a shock factor that will swing many games against anyone not yet familiar enough with the rule system or experienced enough to see how to hurt it before it gets the better of you. With the +5 for a big win there is a benenfit in getting more of these from the main pool than beating the top player at the end. With 19BGs it can hang in there against the best by sheer volume.

2. In that sense a very smart and well thought out choice by Graham and Keith - and not untypical of their cunning army choice preparation in the DBM days - well done to them for the spot and backing it up with good play.

3. However IMO this army is vulnerable to many things. It will work well against an aggressive player who tries to ride it down and exposes flanks in the process, but against well judged and patient pressure it has many weaknesses. All 3 of the armies I was considering for Britcon would perhaps have given it a hard time:

• a) Spartan 17BGs, too many Arm Off Sp to get round any flanks - there won't be any. Just keep it tight and the frontages small and any open terrain fight is a serious issue for the Romans. If they choose to hide they need terrain so won't get round flanks anyway. If they try to take flanks in the open then they will face 2 near unbeatable spear blocks each over 2 ft wide and while they make get and end 6 BG the 3 in the middle each time will have plenty of time to do some damage. All drilled so can turn to face easily. The army is big enough to trade battle groups with the DR.
  b) Kwharizmian. Lots of Superior Shooty cavalry. Single rank them and what can this Roman really do to hurt them much. Eventually the shooting wioll tell being Sup vs Ave troops. You just have to be patient and wait for the hole to appear. 24 Sup Bw Cavalry plus skimrishers is going to do damage given time. What does this army do against high quality shooting - HYW longbowmen can sit at 5.5 MUsall day and bombard it, EAP Immortals will shoot it up very badly. It has a real problem as it isn't tough enough to charge chooters to get rid of them - take a deck chair and sit at 5.5 MUs and keep rolling the dice until they start to crimble. The IC can't beeverywhere holding it together.
  c) Late Republican Roman. Lots of 4 base Bgs but better head to head on a narrow front and it will be hard to hurt. Flank charges not going to be easy as even if they conform its not difficult to cover flanks with intercept zones and if the Dominate angle too much the drilled ability of the 4 HF will just manouvre them into flank charge position themselves. This gets more difficult as frontage gets broader of course so don't charge and angled 4 with a 6 wide BG og warband!!. This army can't afford to trade BGs with the Dominate, but it is on a + in both Impact and Melee and Superior. Very high odds that the first BG hit won't last long enough to wait for help (2.33 hit for LR vs 1.33 for the DR in both phases is likely to be terminal very quickly duer to lots of 3-1 losses).

Also quite fancy my Gauls, Britons, Indians, Thracians and Navaresse vs the army.

It seems to me - albeit from afar - that this is a very shrewd army choice for 2 good players at this relatively early stage in the growth of FOG when there are lots of players who will be understandably overwhlemed by the surprise. Played very well it will do very well ... played not so well it will be a liability and lose 15-5 a lot.

Well done to them but I can't see any need to panic about it. I am sure many a counter strategy will emerge before the next outing.

Just reward for excellent preparation and play!

Si

[chubooga]

Thats a great post Simon, really helps me understand how the game works better..............

No doubt that anyone winning britcon with anything has played well and deserves what the got.

I was just interested in how other, more experienced, players would tackle this army........

food for though on your posting............

cheers
jon

[paulcummins]

..and suddenly there is a good reason for taking LH lancers.#

I would quite fancy Welsh against this lot - LF Longbow, LH lancers, MF off spear. Would work quite well.

[jlopez]

I agree with Simon that the problem against the swarm armies is to reduce the number of vulnerable flanks. If you play it well you will have two or even one but it's hard to resist the urge to charge all over the place and create more flanks. If in doubt as to what to do I recommend a nice straight line with no gaps and a substantial reserve to deal with the unexpected. Worked on the ancient battlefield, works in FOG.

However, I'm not sure how the shooty cavalry army in a line and HYW longbowmen will be able to handle armoured MF:

The longbowmen are dead as far as I'm concerned being one POA down at impact and melee. Shooting the auxilia isn't going to be very effective simply because there isn't going to be much of it before the charges go in (probably one round if he uses the LF as a screen at long range). From what I recall of Graham's games, he was aggresive and didn't hang around to be shot at. He also had a tendency to approach in column. I can't remember if he actually charged in column but that would make sense to reduce the chance of losing bases in combat. The men-at-arms, specially if HA and/or superior, are more likely to hurt the auxilia.

Same goes against shooty cavalry except the mounted are shooting with a negative POA and fewer dice. Against cav one line deep, the obvious tactic is to get up close and personal and charge. If the cav stands it's equal POAs at impact and melees but the auxilia get twice as many dice as the cav in melee. If it evades there's a significant risk of being caught and it isn't going to be shooting a lot. I feel a better tactic would be for the cavalry (assuming it's all armoured) to go two deep and charge.

Julian

[shall]

A little more subtelty is all it needs...

The longbowmen are dead as far as I'm concerned being one POA down at impact and melee. Shooting the auxilia isn't going to be very effective simply because there isn't going to be much of it before the charges go in (probably one round if he uses the LF as a screen at long range). From what I recall of Graham's games, he was aggresive and didn't hang around to be shot at. He also had a tendency to approach in column. I can't remember if he actually charged in column but that would make sense to reduce the chance of losing bases in combat. The men-at-arms, specially if HA and/or superior, are more likely to hurt the auxilia.

Longbows in 8s with a TC is the key. Shooting at long range gives 2 dice per frontage needing 4s so a test 1 in 4 times. The troops are average and on the - for 1 per 2 automatically. Several will fail even with an IC giving +s. As they advance then its 3 dice per enemny BG and much better odd - testing around 40% of the time. 3 shots at each BG as they come in. So on average they will take a test 4 out of 4 times. With an IC they will need a natural 6 or less to fail which is going to happen a fair bit. Avoid the area with the IC and its 7 or less.

In the charge the longbows get 12 dice to 8 and put the general in. All 12 need 5s so on average 4 hits naturally plus 0.67 from rerolls = 4.67. Opponentts have 8 dice at 4s = 4 hits expected. The bows should win round 1 and cause base losses. If the attackers are DISRed by firepower even better.

Same goes against shooty cavalry except the mounted are shooting with a negative POA and fewer dice. Against cav one line deep, the obvious tactic is to get up close and personal and charge. If the cav stands it's equal POAs at impact and melees but the auxilia get twice as many dice as the cav in melee. If it evades there's a significant risk of being caught and it isn't going to be shooting a lot. I feel a better tactic would be for the cavalry (assuming it's all armoured) to go two deep and charge.

Put 1 single rank and one double rank set back 2MU on the side. The latter can then often intercept a charge so that the single rank can always get away if they want, or stand and charge next time.

As you can break off you can take them down anyway 2 ranks deep usually. Firepower is better too. So mix up singles for space and doubles for clout.

A nice touch is to have a rear support at the edge. Enemy charge. You evade and then hit that chargers the next time with 2 deep cav the bound after when they are exposed and their line is broken up.

Basically Graham's army really wants you to charge it and will ge tuncomfrotable when he ahs to charge himself and break his own line up. BUT you have to set the counter strike up well.

Si

[madaxeman]

All very interesting from a "gaming" POV (however Im still not sure I fancy using longbowmen against armoured fast moving foot led by a IC approaching in attack columns!!) , but how do these tactics stand up as a credible historical use of this army?

Graham did well at DBM comps for several years with his Leidang Vikings - but that was on the basis of having a line of impetuous knights lined up behind and ready to burst through his foot spearwall if they were needed. Clever, effective, but not really something the Vikings had worked out how to do..... is this more of the same ?

[shall]

I couldn't claim to be an expert in Dominate Roman ... it doesn't sound very historical to me I must admit, but hey some devious canny devil is always going to find a way to de-historicise any ruleset ....

The Longbow tussle is actually stacked quite heavily in favour of the longbows IME and it probably is historical that they would be able to stand up to such and attack in the open. They are after all Prot,Sw as well as shooters. Not that we have any great tests of this from anywhere I suspect. One of ther thing not mentioned is that you are risking 1 BG to threaten 2 which is always a good game in FOG if you can achieve it with part of an army that still has decent nos of BGs overall.

I certainly wouldn't fancy walking a few 00 yards through longbow fire to take them on - even if I did have some chain mail for partial protection - in the game or in reality!

Si

[spike]

Si's analysis of longbow is what happened to my Greek Arm OS vs. Pete D's English 100YW

I had better capability to take the hits, than Graham would have (the Greeks were in 8's in a 3 wide formation with 2 as a 3rd rank) and I even had rear support with some units to mitigate the CT's. You need to pass the tests, and I failed almost all of them

Julian's point about the Romans having + and both impact and Melee does not help if you are disrupted from shooting before impact, (your opponent has 9 dice needing 5's, to your 4 needing 4s) and you go fragged when you lose the impact! - Standing back so you can rally and hit as steady and not charging while disrupted is not an option as you will probably break from shooting- unless you can get some skirmishers between the bow and the heavier foot.

The importance of FoG is -If you can pass the tests you are OK, if not you are toast. Loss of bases is less significant

Spike

[shall]

Si's analysis of longbow is what happened to my Greek Arm OS vs. Pete D's English 100YW

I had better capability to take the hits, than Graham would have (the Greeks were in 8's in a 3 wide formation with 2 as a 3rd rank) and I even had rear support with some units to mitigate the CT's. You need to pass the tests, and I failed almost all of them

I generally find Sup can walk through the fire but Ave cannot. 4 Base Bgs especailly vulnerable as they take the -1 every time they take a test for 1 per 2 as well.

Si

[spike]

Si's analysis of longbow is what happened to my Greek Arm OS vs. Pete D's English 100YW

I had better capability to take the hits, than Graham would have (the Greeks were in 8's in a 3 wide formation with 2 as a 3rd rank) and I even had rear support with some units to mitigate the CT's. You need to pass the tests, and I failed almost all of them

I generally find Sup can walk through the fire but Ave cannot. 4 Base Bgs especailly vulnerable as they take the -1 every time they take a test for 1 per 2 as well.

Si

Si

Being "Superior" would have helped me in the melee, but not for passing tests.

Spike

[shall]

Well even elites can fail everything if they try hard enough!! Sounds like you had the rough end of the dice in risky situation, which is where FOG will often take its revenge.

In think I would back the longbows given average dice on both sides if the attackers are Ave.

Si

[carlos]

All very interesting from a "gaming" POV (however Im still not sure I fancy using longbowmen against armoured fast moving foot led by a IC approaching in attack columns!!) , but how do these tactics stand up as a credible historical use of this army?

No doubt armored auxilia would charge at full tilt towards enemy archers. I mean, if not that, what else would they do?

[philqw78]

if not that, what else would they do?

Come in from the sides, using the superior LH to distract the LBow

[chubooga]

double post...... I jsut cant get the hang of this any more than i can my wargaming!

jon

[chubooga]

interesting stuff gents............ sounds like LGbw frontally can make a go of it, though its still not a fight the MF are overlly concerned about......... and of course, with so many BGs the swarm can trade BG for BG knowing your army breaks well before his does......... so why not put some armoured MF in front of the bw, sure they will need bolstering but should be good to go for several turns of shooting with 2 gens in attendance.......... this keeps the lgbw honest and lets the spare 5-6 BGs from the swarm roll a flank............

standing off the swarm could allow them to time they need to manouver into optimum positions with enemy BGs costing about twice as much but being worth more (pro rata) if broken I dont think you can hang around against them, and best bit is, the armies that are being put forward as having a good chance against the swarm do not seem to have a much of a chance against other armies, whereas the swarm does its thing against everyone!

sounds to me (inexperienced that I am) that it can be beaten, but mainly by armies designed to beat it, and these armies wont get to play it much as they wont be at tourneys due to their weakness against most other armies.................its all good news to me, as Essex have just confirmed my large order of MF romans is packed and on its way to me now!!

what did the playtestors find when this army was trialled out?

jon

[rbodleyscott]

..and suddenly there is a good reason for taking LH lancers.

As in:

Buwhaiyids (From FoG Companion 7: Decline and Fall - out later this year).

1 x IC
2 x Sub-Commander TC
7 x 6 Dailami MF Armoured, Average, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 x 8 Dailami LF Bow
2 x 4 Bedouin Lancers LH, Unprotected, Average, Lancers, Swordsmen

1 x Bedouin Ally commander TC
3 x 4 Bedouin Lancers LH, Unprotected, Average, Lancers, Swordsmen

It is less swarmy than the Pinner army, but has more punch. Moreover, it might give the Dominate swarm a bad day.

[paulcummins]

My kids want to buy me the lead for an army as a birthday pressie - looks like its going to be Dailami and Bedouin LH

[ethan]

I have wondered about taking those types of Bedouins as Cv instead of LH to create some "swarm" tactics. Yes, protected Cv lancers are pretty vulnerable but if they have a numbers advantage and can get flanks...

[rbodleyscott]

My kids want to buy me the lead for an army as a birthday pressie - looks like its going to be Dailami and Bedouin LH

I would try a couple of games with proxy figures before committing yourself.

[madaxeman]

I have wondered about taking those types of Bedouins as Cv instead of LH to create some "swarm" tactics. Yes, protected Cv lancers are pretty vulnerable but if they have a numbers advantage and can get flanks...

Undrilled troops wont be able to get onto the flanks anywhere near as easily as drilled IMO (or IME).

And mounted cant hide in rough (or uneven) terrain to avoid knights either.

This would be Swarm(I)