When does Rudel reappear?

[Bronze]

I'm on the last scenario of the '41 Mega-campaign and he hasn't arrived. I still have him in the unit, "Reconnaissance Flight," he arrives in. Do I have to deploy him in every scenario? -I don't think I have in the past....

[BiteNibbleChomp]

IIRC you have to deploy him in Minsk41, the first one in Russia, to get the super rudel. If he has died and been reformed then he can't reappear in 'super' form no matter what.

- BNC

[Bronze]

I didn't deploy him there as I had the 3 flying fuel tanks........

[Magic1111]

Yes, that´s correct!

To become the "Super-Rudel", you must simple deploy the "Reconnaissance Flight Rudel" in Minsk´41 Scenario. And only in this!

[Bronze]

Is this officially, or not, stated anywhere so that I might find other events I have been missing?
Thank you! Off to restart '41.

[deafknight]

You can actually use mini rudel, he's great at spotting!
just ensure he's next to a fighter, or he'll get xp fast

[Bronze]

Yes, but in the Minsk scenario one has the 3 flying fuel tanks so not really a need for a fourth reconnaissance flight, except to get "Super Rudel." What other events like this am I missing?

[deafknight]

afaik, none. The other elite units just pop on the map at the beginning.
You might check the "capturable units" thread if you don't want to miss any, thou.

[proline]

Yes, but in the Minsk scenario one has the 3 flying fuel tanks so not really a need for a fourth reconnaissance flight, except to get "Super Rudel." What other events like this am I missing?

The game tells you in Poland that he has potential and to use him at every opportunity (i.e. always). It also gives you regular encouragement every few scenarios when it updates you on his promotion requests. While it isn't actually necessary to deploy him every scenario, if you follow the instructions you won't miss him.

[deafknight]

On a side note, i got super rudel with +3 attack and +1 initiative, and when upgraded to a ME410 he one shot almost everything
I didnt do it, but you might reload the game if you got a hero you dont want. Althought every bonus looks useful, even spotting, as the ME has 2 range, so +1 is quite the scout. Initiative helps getting first shot, i'd think defense would be the worst stat (except against AA, but if you expose tac bombers to AA, you're doing it wrong

[hurly]

On a side note, i got super rudel with +3 attack and +1 initiative, and when upgraded to a ME410 he one shot almost everything
I didnt do it, but you might reload the game if you got a hero you dont want. Althought every bonus looks useful, even spotting, as the ME has 2 range, so +1 is quite the scout. Initiative helps getting first shot, i'd think defense would be the worst stat (except against AA, but if you expose tac bombers to AA, you're doing it wrong

I just can't let that (bolded) statement go as it stands

I've got Rudel during several playthroughs with or without several hero ratings and use him often as an AA killer

quite often he can one shot AA and escape unharmed, even if he does the damage is anything but crippling his abilities and he is as useful as in full elite upgrade mode

While I won't necessarily use Rudel and his attack move to eliminate AA units i can reach without a big effort, this tactic is extremely helpful in attacking highly entrenched bases, cities et al.

Rudel eliminates the AA quickly and serves as a can opener then all other tac and strat bombers can easily chew up the rest of the defenders especially the arty
Even if Rudel takes a bite here and there its way cheaper to upgrade one Rudel at the same Price tag as any other regular unit, but not prone to multiple losses during a siege.

I even experimented with letting Rudel go as a regular 10 strength unit (and the subsequent replacement for free between scenarios)
Not completely sold on this tactic it chews up experience of Rudel slowly along the way, but I can envision that a 10 strength Rudel with 3 Def Hero plus an Iniative Hero (are there any bigger than +1 ? not sure) will be an AA crusher that will go practically unharmed from every attack.
Not sure if that works with a ME 410 though.

[deafknight]

Good point, but you can't do that against a "true" AA, like a 8.8 with two stars, i think. You'll sustain heavy losses and lose prestige.
personally i almost always hit AA with artillery, THEN air strike, preferably with a strat bomber.
ofc in US corps, when you got the B29 monsters, you can almost pass up on the artillery strike

What i mean about prestige is the most efficient is to lose a FEW points, so you can repair with free upgrade, and you lose xp that was generally capped anyway, then overstrength back to 11/12. It's the tactic i use and generally it works quite well

[hurly]

Good point, but you can't do that against a "true" AA, like a 8.8 with two stars, i think. You'll sustain heavy losses and lose prestige.
personally i almost always hit AA with artillery, THEN air strike, preferably with a strat bomber.
ofc in US corps, when you got the B29 monsters, you can almost pass up on the artillery strike

What i mean about prestige is the most efficient is to lose a FEW points, so you can repair with free upgrade, and you lose xp that was generally capped anyway, then overstrength back to 11/12. It's the tactic i use and generally it works quite well

Well the thing is Germans don't have the same Quality of Strat Bombers (and arty of course) as the allies, even a if they cash in Experience very quickly.
So the way to go for Allies/US units and German units are different. In a completely different story I tried to solve Soviet Corps without any Air Units at all (except the ones given to you in certain scenarios, and then just in that scenario) Works pretty smooth even if early on it can be a bit frustrating, and later on it takes a good timed plan to get a triumph all the time.

The way you called i would name it the conventional way you usually still have to expose a few ground units to arty fire because of the reach to get to deeply placed aa units. Rudel in a stuka on the other handespecially at strength 11 or 12 is pretty cheap to replace especially in the 44 compared to a 13 to strength arty unit that is at some point in the line of enemy fire

And regarding the losses vs heavy aa units in a stuka.
I have not charted this way to attack with rudel, but even vs heavy soviet antiair he quite often one shots or extremely weakens antiair units so you can concentrate valuable arty fire on enemy arty early on. (gut feeling)

Perhaps not the perfect strategy to soften the enemy in heavy sieges, but worth a try and pretty cost effective

One more point though than may or may not change my Rudel AA tactics.
I still play at colonel strength all the time, somehow i never got the urge to make a run at higher difficulty levels. Not that i am so afraid of the challenge its just that I just have so much time (my wife always says way too many time) to spend and this game is time consuming as hell.
So I still went with the vanilla settings (except 1.20 rules and reform units) all time and did not really bother to go to a higher difficulty level.
That there always seems to be a new challenge as Sea lion+, Soviet Corps, Allied corps and several mods i yet have to approach is basically not helpful in a decison to make runs in different diff levels I just trust the programmers that they made these vanilla settings with a reason and they are the way this game is meant to be played.

So be aware that my hint may work with colonel, but not necessarily with higher levels especially as experience is harder to get.

[deafknight]

interesting remarks
I also play at colonel. It's true the playstyle depends on nation, and fighters are not that needed except for escort. I actually upgraded to a ME410 to reduce my fighter count, as they are most expensive units and prevent you buying stuff that is useful till the last turn (German tanks & AT, US Bombers...). The benefit is then rudel can back up as a plane killer, which he can't in a stuka. But the idea is nice, even if a bit unrealistic to me. The stuka needs to dive, so he could be nailed easily by flak. Using a low ground approach and canons would perhaps work?

I'd say in panzer corps, both approach works. I finished nearly all GCs, after all

[hurly]

interesting remarks
I also play at colonel. It's true the playstyle depends on nation, and fighters are not that needed except for escort. I actually upgraded to a ME410 to reduce my fighter count, as they are most expensive units and prevent you buying stuff that is useful till the last turn (German tanks & AT, US Bombers...). The benefit is then rudel can back up as a plane killer, which he can't in a stuka. But the idea is nice, even if a bit unrealistic to me. The stuka needs to dive, so he could be nailed easily by flak. Using a low ground approach and canons would perhaps work?

I'd say in panzer corps, both approach works. I finished nearly all GCs, after all

Well what is really realistic in a hexagon based turn by turn war game
Maybe all of us playing this great game should be happy to not experience the atrocities of a real war combat but that's a mute point as we are indeed just playing a game and trying to be up to the challenge

So back to the game mechanics

Well attacking AA with a Stuka is probably unrealistic but then sending out Rudel in a Me 410 is exactly what ? Historically not correct for sure

I' am by no means an expert in WW2 weaponry, tactics et al but as far as i know Rudel's Legacy as a Tank Killer was established flying the G Type Stuka
He certainly was a highly decorated pilot before, but the Fame took of when he switched to the G Type Stuka with the Autocannons
look here

And as far as I can see the G-Type while still a Ju87 is a completely different animal than the original Stuka Dive Bomber
You tube clip with g Type in Action


But i'm certain that a few guys are around here in this forum who can elaborate on this with a lot more knowledge than I can with my just googled sources.

[deafknight]

interesting read, althought i wonder how even a 37mm gun can do more than scratch a KV 2 or IS
must have been deadly to those t34, thou.

SO, i want to go historical, i must wait for the FW 190 to get rudel out of a stuka

[hurly]

interesting read, althought i wonder how even a 37mm gun can do more than scratch a KV 2 or IS
must have been deadly to those t34, thou.

SO, i want to go historical, i must wait for the FW 190 to get rudel out of a stuka

hm since the 8.8 was so effective as a tank killer because of the velocity it could generate with its bullets maybe the answer is

a 3.7 fired at a speed of approx 150 mph + from above may come in at the target with a considerably higher speed than fired from the ground and probably even deeply entrenched. The difference of the impact can be huge

As I said i'm no expert in weaponry kinetics and stuff. But i'm sure there are dudes around here that can give us some insight on this

[Kerensky]

As I recall, tank armor is thinnest on top. Even thinner than rear. Maybe even thinner than bottom.

[deafknight]

ah, that's true! if a high velocity ammo enters the turret ... hmmm. Boom happens
if i follow wikipedia, for example, panther A had 16mm, even less than the T34. Probly why they upped it in Panther G.

I could check WoT weak spot guide, i guess, but i quit playing, if i go there again i fear i'll succumb to temptation

[Dragoon.]

As I recall, tank armor is thinnest on top. Even thinner than rear. Maybe even thinner than bottom.

Oh didn't know, the T34 has only 20mm of armor on top? If the caliber of the gun is larger than the armor thickness, 37mm cannon versus 20mm steel, then I would say. From Rudel POV the T34 don't have any armor at all.