Ideas for a late medieval Irish army?

[vercingetorix]

Does anyone have experience with Late medieval Irish armies? If so could you give me some tips on what to get? I am in the process of painting one up now, and was wondering how much of each troop type I should get approximately.

Thanks

[SirGarnet]

Combat experience in FoG no, but to give you an idea of what a list might look like, this is what I did a few months back to get an idea of what the Irish would field in order to work out doctrine and tactics. Note that the Cavalry, LH, and Galloglaigh are maxed.

"IC + 2 TCs + Ally TC (799, BGs not assigned to allies yet, which require a GG BG and at least 8 Kern MF or LF (Laddies))

9 The Gentry 4xCv Armoured Superior Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen
10 Raiders 4xLH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear
5 Raiders 6xLH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear
6 Galloglaigh 1 Brig 1 8xHF Protected Superior Undrilled - Heavy weapon
11 Galloglaigh 2 Brig 1 8xHF Protected Superior Undrilled - Heavy weapon
12 Galloglaigh 3 2dline 8xHF Protected Average Undrilled - Heavy weapon
13 Galloglaigh Reserve 6xHF Protected Superior Undrilled - Heavy weapon
14 Kern Foot 1 12xMF Unprotected Average Undrilled - Light spear
15 Kern Foot 2 8xMF Unprotected Average Undrilled - Light spear
16 Kern Foot 3 6xMF Unprotected Average Undrilled - Light spear
7 Archers 8xLF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow
1 Laddies o the Left 8xLF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins Light spear
2 Laddies o the Middle 8xLF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins Light spear
3 Laddies o the Right 8xLF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins Light spear
8 Laddies o the Woods 6xLF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear
4 Rising Out 10xMF Unprotected Poor Undrilled

114 Bases, 16 BG. Designed to deploy Skirmisher Laddies across the board at the start and the Rising Out as Camp Guard or terrain force/skirmisher supports. Then more skirmishers, some raiders, and a Galloglaigh (GG) BG, which may or may not mislead enemy. The third quarter is more GG, Raiders and the Gentry, which pretty much indicates our plans. However, the 4th quarter sees the GG reserve go down to respond to developments, and all 3 Kern Foot BGs in a mass or dispersed as needed.
This means we don't need to make a final decision on deployment until late. HOWEVER, we do need a plan for where the heavies and mounted are going BEFORE quarter 2 since that is when we put down the last screening skirmishers and we don't want them misdeployed.
Galloglaigh Brigade 1 is of 2 GG BGs intended to work together as a main attacking spearhead. GG 3 is Average quality, able to stay behind the line or receive rear support from Kern Foot. The Kern Foot have 3 BGs of different sizes, allowing flexibility. The smallest can in column rear support both others, or the GG 3rd.
I thought about making the Gentry average in order to be able to get support more easily, but it is small and needs Superior for good prospects, and as Superior it can support GG. I also thought about lances, but that leaves it unable to skirmish and liable to uncontrolled charges, and it should be more cautiously handled."

The high base count discouraged me from trying tabletop drill with substitute troops, something which I think will be necessary along with terrain practice to figure out how to make the army work. Tricky to play, I expect. The Galloglaigh need to find the right targets, terrain needs to be used well, and numbers need to count and ideally lead to some flank attacks against a foe with tougher troops.

Mike

[vercingetorix]

Wow! thanks a lot for such a detailed post.

I have a couple of questions

what do you think about getting Edward the bruce and knights and stuff? I thought some knights might be useful in an army with so few heavy mounted.

I noticed you selected the kern light foot as average. Would that reduce their effectiveness by much? My experience with poor troops has been awful.

It seemed like you took a lot of kern MF. what purpose would they serve? I was thinking of only getting a couple small bgs of them to maneuver with and get flanks.

Is a camp guard neccessary? I haven't played a ton of games, but is a camp guard very useful?

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

[SirGarnet]

No Bruce since I wanted a straight Irish list with lots of BGs and an IC to help with all the Undrilled troops. Knights and allies can make this a smaller, harder (easier to paint!) army, but my tactical idea was using numbers on a wide front, terrain, and HW capability. If you take the Knights they need to fight, and having them be the schwerpunkt of the army is a different (maybe better) approach.

WIth this many BGs there are going to be more opportunities than usual for rear support to bring troop morale up a notch.

As the Poor Troops thread indicates, Poor troops are usually used as cheap BG filler or as troops that are not intended to actually get involved in a fair fight. So poor skirmishers often make sense as they are cheap and maneuver like average except for backing up and they have prospects of throwing shooting dice without being shot back at.

If I could take a Kern MF as Poor I'd consider it since even the worst non-skirmisher BG can inflict a cohesion hit if it can gain a flank or rear charge. Kerns can't face anything good head on in the open, but with a numerical edge you get overlaps or a flank/rear attack if the enemy line is loose enough. How it works remains to be seen.

If kept far from the action, the mob may as well be near the camp as it can fend off skirmishers - needs to take at least 4 hits for a CT based on 1/3 shooting hits. Another good use for mobs is as rear support for poor spears (or pikes), though that doesn't apply here.

Bear in mind I'm no expert on Irish - I haven't even seen them on the table in FoG. I find them interesting and please post how they fare.

Mike

[vercingetorix]

well,

thanks for the advice -- i'll try out your list idea.

One more question -- Could you tell me a little bit about commanders? I have always just taken TC's.

In what way would I use and IC to full effectiveness?

Thanks

[daleivan]

well,

thanks for the advice -- i'll try out your list idea.

One more question -- Could you tell me a little bit about commanders? I have always just taken TC's.

In what way would I use and IC to full effectiveness?

Thanks

For what's worth-- IC's are great for CMTs involving undrilled troops-- they give an extra plus when making the CMT, and have a 12 MU command radius.

[SirGarnet]

IC usually either in range of troops taking shooting for the +2 CT modifier or undrilled foot for the +2 CMT modifier (or join personally to avoid difficult move issues up close and get another +1 CMT modifier. Don't commit the IC to front rank combat - he is too useful for the 12 MU bonus radius and moving around bolstering troops who are eligible.

IC also gives you +2 Initiative rolls, so more chance of choosing a terrain region you like.

FCs are TC's with twice the radius, but they do have a substantial bonus for flank march arrival (check the table and modifiers on the last page of the QRS at the end of the rulebook). An army with 16 BGs is large enough that a flank march might make sense on some battlefields, and if I was to design for a flank march I'd take an Allied FC.

FC CinCs also give +1 Initiative rolls, but the IC bonus would supercede this.

[hazelbark]

I am looking to bring out my old 25mm irish or anglo-irhs, so I think this is on track. Lots of Galloglaigh . Be cares that MF kerns are going to die a lot.

The argument for an IC is to help influence terrain choices.

This is another army that is terrain imapcts a fair bit. But the Galloglaigh are the only thing that can win a battle for you. I'll look at one of the flavors with some long bow or allies I think.

[vercingetorix]

Yeah, I'm starting to realize the value of an IC -- Initiative would be a big deal with this army.

a couple other questions:

Why do you put the MF Kerns in the last march group? I would think that is where the Galloglaigh would go?

Was there a specific reason you chose LF archers? Wouldn't LF kerns be as usefull?

thanks for all the help

[hazelbark]

I presume he put the MF kerns last so he can hide them, I am with you the Galloglaigh mostly go late.

I think a mix of archers and javelins is good for LF. The problem with Javelins is they aren't a guaranteed win versus LF archers or enemy LF javelin so with Bow you got a better chance to disrupt at range and know you should never accept a LF charge

[vercingetorix]

what do you mean guaranteed win?

thats kinda confusing

[hazelbark]

what do you mean guaranteed win?

thats kinda confusing

Sorry. What i meant was 8 LF javelinmen charge 8 LF bow.

If the bow receive the charge it is not like there is certainty that the Javelinmen will triumph. The impact is fought with + by the javelins. Melee is even. So if the javelin don't inflict a disrupted in impact, then it is a straight dice fest thereafter unless the javelin are protected. As opposed to LH into LF where the dice advantage should triumph if the POA doesn't.

Is that better?

[SirGarnet]

I presume he put the MF kerns last so he can hide them, I am with you the Galloglaigh mostly go late.

Hiding - I think they'd like that! But I'm counting on a brigade of them (or mix with GG) finding something suitable to beat up on much of the time just by virtue of having lots of troops and a long line of battle.

Order of March involves lots of factors and a few rules of thumb - two I used here are to deploy MF last since they are match-up sensitive and not to delay HF after their optimal deployments would become obvious - spreading GG in the last 3 quarters seemed reasonable given the army makeup and intended terrain. If I tried to hold them back to the end the spots where they would appear might be fairly obvious, and the MF would be less likely to find someplace where they would be useful. More order of march rules of thumb in the link below.

I think this army needs army-specific battle experience and ideally terrain/deployment drill against an active opponent to shake out the list and deployment approaches until it's comfortable.

May your field o glory be evergreen,

Mike

[vercingetorix]

thanks for the tips -- I'm well on my way to having the army painted -- I've got two units of MF Kerns done, my Cav, some GG, and the LH is on its way.