Effectivness of Nellies

[madcam2us]

Hello,

Average, broken at one loss, unwieldy, expensive....

What are the positives?

Tactics for their use?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Madcam.

[daleivan]

Hello,

Average, broken at one loss, unwieldy, expensive....

What are the positives?

Tactics for their use?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Madcam.

Here's my two cents--

I've played against them probably seven or eight times while using them only four times, most recently yesterday while running a friend's Classical Indian army.

Positives--50 pts isn't bad for a BG that disorders horse, gets a +1 on Death rolls, and that matches up well against most troop types POA-wise-- pikes being the exception. Slings and bows get a minus POA against them in shooting, while javelins get a plus--which makes the latter potentially the elephant disruptor (killing is order through shooting of course since the elephants get a +1 in the death roll along with the standard +2 when testing for death against shooting

My tactics are to pair them with foot of some sort-- yesterday I brigaded four of my elephant BGs each with with an MF bow, sword, alternating them down the battline, with a fifth BG in reserve. Pairing allowed the elephants to charge in tandem with the infantry or support via overlap. Losing to elephants in close combat is a -1 for virtually everyone.

The nice thing about Classical Indians is the nellies could be deployed on the flanks to drive off enemy cavalry, or massed in the center, though I'm less keen on having them go alone against an enemy infantry battleline, especially if that BL includes pike. Elephants have the potential to stomp Romans flat, given that after impact the romans won't get a POA (elephants cancel armor and sword POA). So far I've been fortunate when commanding Romans against Elephants--that's where LF with jav and light spear are your new best friend.

Cheers,

Dale

[dave_r]

Well, in the game I had on Monday some elephants charged some of my Armoured, Offensive Spearmen. It was all going well, when they went fragmented on impact, unfortunately they then rallied to steady and then broke my spear BG

On a more serious note, most pople tend to deploy them in column - i.e. only one elephant frontage, that way it is very difficult to get the hits in Combat (with the elephant having an automatic +1 on the death roll) to cause an AutoBreak. They obviously have to be used carefully and in conjunction with other troops as they won't win on their own.

That -1 for losing against Elephants on the Cohesion Test is fairly nasty.

[daleivan]

Well, in the game I had on Monday some elephants charged some of my Armoured, Offensive Spearmen. It was all going well, when they went fragmented on impact, unfortunately they then rallied to steady and then broke my spear BG

On a more serious note, most pople tend to deploy them in column - i.e. only one elephant frontage, that way it is very difficult to get the hits in Combat (with the elephant having an automatic +1 on the death roll) to cause an AutoBreak. They obviously have to be used carefully and in conjunction with other troops as they won't win on their own.

That -1 for losing against Elephants on the Cohesion Test is fairly nasty.

What happened to your Armoured, Offensive spear sounds like very tough luck. Yikes

Deploying elephants in column would make them a bit easier to wheel and interleave with other units, too. I don't quite understand how deploying them in column would make it more difficult to get hits on the elephants (perhaps its lack of sleep on my part -- the elephants don't get to count a second rank for purposes of determining hits per base. A column might make it harder for the enemy to cause enough hits to kill them since they would be up against fewer enemy bases (unless overlapped on both sides)--is that what you meant?

[GrumblingGrognard]

In column they have less frontage and are thus less exposed to hits. But, even with only one base in contact you would still get the "-1" mod should you win the melee as the enemy is "fighting elephants".

I (personally) find this tactic somewhat distasteful. I will gladly retract this last bit if someone can show me a single time in history where elephants attacked in column by choice...

GG

[babyshark]

I have used hefalumps a few times in Successor armies and had mixed results. The trick is--IMHO--not to let them get seperated from the rest of your army. Unlike in DBM where a single stand of El can roam the battlefield sowing death and destruction, in FoG a lone BG of El is asking for trouble. Two BGs deployed side to side, on the other hand, really pack a wallop. I have had some success intermingling them with foot BGs as well. The trouble with the intermingling is that it tends to telegraph your deployment, and the long battleline that results can be unwieldy.

FWIW, the last two times I played Early Seleucid I left the El at home and I had my best results with the army. I am not sure whether this is because I dropped the El or because I am slowly getting the hang of playing FoG.

Marc

[hazelbark]

The other thing about Elephants is often they have POAs they negate the POAs of other good troops so tend to have fairly neutral matchups.

[vercingetorix]

If they get caught on their own they are liable to be broken very quickly -- one time I killed a BG of Elephants in one turn with 4 stands of Cav.

if used with other troops they may be more effective?

[GrumblingGrognard]

The other thing about Elephants is often they have POAs they negate the POAs of other good troops so tend to have fairly neutral matchups.

Yes, but it seems to me that a neutral match up is also about the best elephants can hope for as well. Two bad rolls in a row and the bg is dead (one in combat then the death roll).

In a my last three games totaling six melees with elephants I have had a bg die in the first round twice. If you lose the combat and roll a "1", bye-bye.

Somebody in the know around here called them "Glass Cannons". It really fits.

My over-priced two-cents,

GG

[marty]

My question with elephants would be more about why they get the cohesion test bonus' for generals. Surely elephant morale is more about the beast itself than the crew and I cant see the average grey pig feeling +2 worth of happy because Alexander is urging them on.

Martin

[MarkSieber]

I can understand the rationale for a cohesion test bonus. A mahout often trained and lived with the same elephant from youth, human and elephant lifespans being similar. Unless panicked, an elephant was influenced by his handler much as a well trained horse by a familiar rider. During the Successor period particular groups of elephants participated in a number of battles over decades with relatively low casualty rates. Some groups changed 'ownership' from one army to another--the numbers were carefully recorded. They were not replaced, and their numbers eventually dwindled--but their long service record would suggest they were fairly reliable.

[GKChesterton1976]

My only gripe with elephants under FoG is that none of them shoot. I can accept that generally it is desirable not to overly differentiate elephants and to thereby perhaps magnify differences which in reality may not have been significant. But a Burmese elephant should be able to shoot to some degree!

I am an experienced Warrior/7th player, and still love that game, but elephants were very over powered in it, and minor differences between elephants were overly significant. Any elephant with a pikeman on top for instance was pretty good.

Adrian

[GrumblingGrognard]

My only gripe with elephants under FoG is that none of them shoot. I can accept that generally it is desirable not to overly differentiate elephants and to thereby perhaps magnify differences which in reality may not have been significant. But a Burmese elephant should be able to shoot to some degree!

I am not convinced that the small number of missile troops on an even smaller number of elephants should have any significant effect in a game with the figure scale of FoG.

GG

[Smackyderm]

My only gripe with elephants under FoG is that none of them shoot. I can accept that generally it is desirable not to overly differentiate elephants and to thereby perhaps magnify differences which in reality may not have been significant. But a Burmese elephant should be able to shoot to some degree!

I am not convinced that the small number of missile troops on an even smaller number of elephants should have any significant effect in a game with the figure scale of FoG.

GG

My entirely inexpert opinion is that tower howdahs and "aft crew" are there mainly to defend the mahout and the flanks/rear of the beast. I'll check Kistler to see if he mentions that specifically.

The violence that the elephant does by himself is so catastrophic that I have a hard time believing that a couple extra guys on his back could make a difference in terms of raw offense... the mahout-driven elephant himself is the real weapon system. I do believe, and unfortunately it seems that FoG doesn't believe this, that crew (especially protected crew) act as a force multiplier for this weapon system because they protect his vulnerable areas.

I would advocate thinking of the crew and howdah like the turret rear MG on a Stalin tank: it's a defensive system.

[vercingetorix]

Also, there wouldn't be enough missile troops on the elephants because there were so few elephants -- if they got any missile ability it should be something weak like bow*

just my opinion

[hazelbark]

I am an experienced Warrior/7th player, and still love that game, but elephants were very over powered in it, and minor differences between elephants were overly significant. Any elephant with a pikeman on top for instance was pretty good.

Was it 6th of 7th that the Burmese chain guns on elephant, every figure could fire in a 360 direction. Awesome firepower. The guy that called it a chain gun was right.

[daleivan]

Was it 6th of 7th that the Burmese chain guns on elephant, every figure could fire in a 360 direction. Awesome firepower. The guy that called it a chain gun was right.

I used to play a Seleucid army back in the 80s under 6th edition and even the bowmen (one or two IIRC) on the Seleucid war elephants could do a bit a of damage. I remember looking at Burmese in the old 6th army list and thinking, yikes. A bit overpower IMHO

[vercingetorix]

Does anyone else think that elephants are generally overpowered? I don't know of any battles where they were really a big issue -- kindof like scythed chariots?

[Redpossum]

Does anyone else think that elephants are generally overpowered? I don't know of any battles where they were really a big issue -- kindof like scythed chariots?

Heraclea? The Romans threw down their weapons and ran away, which isn't something that happened every day...

[AlanYork]

I've played with them three times using FoG though I am still a bit of a beginner, having played DBM for many years and prior to that WRG 7th edition and 6th before that.

The first time my Seleucid jumbos won me the battle against Medieval Germans. The second and third times they were destroyed on Death Rolls of 1 in battles I went on to lose against Medieval Danes.

They're great for wrecking mounted armies of course, but the fact that losing 1 base means you lose them both and so you can't afford to be unlucky even once on a Death Roll means, IMO, in most games they just aren't worth the points.