Some impressions and bugs

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TheGrayMouser
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Some impressions and bugs

Post by TheGrayMouser »

Hello, posting some of my impressions, possible bugs, and requests


Aesthetics
*unit move radii should be more opaque to see more of the underlaying terrain, to much glaring “whiteness” IMHO
*hexes shrouded by FOW are too black and jarring on the eyes, especially since the hex outline is so distinct. Lighten, opaque up and soften up the edges
*Light horse unit graphic: the individual figures are squeezed to close together an don’t look good ( they are supposed to be in skirmish formation, no?)
*edge of the world off the map. One, instead of a grey black, perhaps true black would be better? Also, too much of the area outside the map can be seen when scrolling extreme up down left or right. Detracts from the visuals
**bring back the units “wiggle” animations when moved, the slidyness of the units now is nowhere near as nice.
**please please get rid of all the BG(11) etc (i) ( m) stuff . These might be ok in the editor but when playing the game, I don’t care if a unit is # 6 or #58 . Also, the game is not so complicated that we need a letter surrounded by parentheses to remind us Lance , Sword is impact weapon/ melee.
Lance(i) sword(m) is just clutter
The additional problem, is now that there is no graphic of the unit in the lower corner when one mouse hover over, its hard a glance to see what moral state your unit is in, one has to LOOK for the written word fragmented etc in that pile of clutter…
(please bring back the graphical unit in the mouse over)

UI /HUD ease of use stuff:
*the break point score should be more in the center, considering it’s the whole POINT of the game, far to the right you need to make an effort t look, the font also gets clips with longer army names…
*the xtra option bar, when open, covers too much of the playable area. Also, the detailed combat log is obscured when the bar is open…
*too many clicks to toggle things off and on, for example, command radius for leaders should be a quick click button, not having to open the xta options, click, close… and then back again to shut off
*the mini map covers way too much of the playable area
*there needs to be crossed sword or something to indicate BG's are locked in melee combat, when enemy and friendly units are just adjacent it is disconcerting :)
*the on map indicator of combat chances ie 36% 36% is now very hard to read and looks badly pixelated.


Bugs:

*no scenario descriptions
*when in scenario selection to select a scenario, the minimap no longer shows the troops deployed in the little red and green pips.

*FOG of WAR is now completely different than it once was. I doudt it’s a bug but it radically changes the game and I wonder if the AI will suffer from it. Also, many scenarios have a totally different feel now that you cant see 90% of the enemy army. You have made it so that a unit on level 0 terrain cannot see a BG that is on a level 1 piece of terrain that is NOT the ist delta change (the very ist hex that the elevation goes up, ie a “hill hex”)
These are supposed to be moderate slopes, not cliff sides that could conceivably block the view of troops up on top but a hundred yards back from the edge…

**this is huge for me and maybe others: you should not ad nauseum, be able to go back to an already moved unit, move it a little, then do other things with other units, then go back again, etc etc
Once moved, the unit should be DONE. This is such a radical gameplay change, why is it there? The game is already somewhat notorious for players having a lot of control and min-maxing everything beyond the bounds of historical and this just adds to this exponentially!

*Light foot that rout an enemy LF and give chase will charge into formed troops . They should not always(ever??) do so.

As an addon to this, in a recent game vs the AI in Akragas, the AI LF broke my LF, it gave chase, and then stuck onto two of my formed heavy foot. This happened ON MY TURN. I was able to melee it with one of my heavy unit, but did not get the option to melee with the other in contact. I ended up routing the enemy LF ( and it evaporated) by impacting it w a third.
The heavy foot that was the LF stuck to but didn’t melee was grayed out and not usable for my turn. I do not believe that hat unit should have lost its turn since it really took no action….

*Without any real consistency, routed BG’s often just disappear, even when they easily could have fled
This is from units that were nowhere near “auto rout levels that I thought might have been why…

*units that come into combat via impact at angles other than front to front, do NOT change facing until melee is resolved the next turn which not only looks weird, changes game play.

edited to fix some( but not all) spelling errors)
NikiforosFokas
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by NikiforosFokas »

For the Aesthetics part i have to add this strange and funny remark:
The archers are giants compared to other LF unit, for example Javelmen. :)
For Byzantium!!
MikeMarchant
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by MikeMarchant »

I do like the fact that you don't have to finish a unit's move before switching to another and back again. It feels very much more realistic to me, given the units are supposed to be moving simultaneously. I know this wasn't possible in the original version, but I think it is an improvement.

I have started my first game today and the first problem I have noticed (a problem for me, that is) is the lack of depth for deployment. For armies that like to to deploy in a great long line from one side of the board to the other it isn't a problem, but those armies who tend to deploy with depth (and there are plenty of those in the ancient world) there just isn't enough space. I always thought that in the original there wasn't enough space, but now it's even less. Clearly armies in the real world have been able to deploy with as much depth as they like (more or less), surely FoG should allow the same?


Best Wishes

Mike
stockwellpete
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by stockwellpete »

MikeMarchant wrote:I have started my first game today and the first problem I have noticed (a problem for me, that is) is the lack of depth for deployment. For armies that like to to deploy in a great long line from one side of the board to the other it isn't a problem, but those armies who tend to deploy with depth (and there are plenty of those in the ancient world) there just isn't enough space. I always thought that in the original there wasn't enough space, but now it's even less. Clearly armies in the real world have been able to deploy with as much depth as they like (more or less), surely FoG should allow the same?
Yes, this is a good spot. Can I add to my list, Mike?
TheGrayMouser
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by TheGrayMouser »

MikeMarchant wrote:I do like the fact that you don't have to finish a unit's move before switching to another and back again. It feels very much more realistic to me, given the units are supposed to be moving simultaneously. I know this wasn't possible in the original version, but I think it is an improvement.

I have started my first game today and the first problem I have noticed (a problem for me, that is) is the lack of depth for deployment. For armies that like to to deploy in a great long line from one side of the board to the other it isn't a problem, but those armies who tend to deploy with depth (and there are plenty of those in the ancient world) there just isn't enough space. I always thought that in the original there wasn't enough space, but now it's even less. Clearly armies in the real world have been able to deploy with as much depth as they like (more or less), surely FoG should allow the same?


Best Wishes

Mike
I cannot disagree more. Example: You have a unit A adjacent to another one of yours B locked in combat and possibly going to rout. Being adjacent to a routed unit is BAD, so you move said A unit away, then conclude the combat, and sure enough B BG routs. Now your unit A you are allowed to go back to, could possibly even be in a situation when it can now get a rear hit on the enemy bg... That is not realism its gaming the game.

Think of how frustrating it is to play as newcomer vs an experienced opponent that knows all the nuascnes, he knows how to trap your lights, knows exactly what paths they will take in an eavde and can "count the hexes" so to speak to ensure he can catch em... Now multiply that by 10 when you can go back and forth between units all you want.

Players already adopt unique and implausible battle formations due to the turn based nature ( cataphracts nestled between pike unit ( or behind them happy in th fact they cannot anrchy thru pikes because pikes are shock troops) waiting to dart out when POA's are in their favour.

The Ai is already sub par, and it will never tak einto account partial moves etc.

I 100% agree about the depth, and woud also place restricts on ly deploy near the flankls ( or have a cap on how many BG's can deploy with say 5-7 hexes on a flank.
MikeMarchant
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by MikeMarchant »

stockwellpete wrote:
MikeMarchant wrote:I have started my first game today and the first problem I have noticed (a problem for me, that is) is the lack of depth for deployment. For armies that like to to deploy in a great long line from one side of the board to the other it isn't a problem, but those armies who tend to deploy with depth (and there are plenty of those in the ancient world) there just isn't enough space. I always thought that in the original there wasn't enough space, but now it's even less. Clearly armies in the real world have been able to deploy with as much depth as they like (more or less), surely FoG should allow the same?
Yes, this is a good spot. Can I add to my list, Mike?
Yes, please do.


Best Wishes

Mike
MikeMarchant
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by MikeMarchant »

TheGrayMouser wrote: I cannot disagree more. Example: You have a unit A adjacent to another one of yours B locked in combat and possibly going to rout. Being adjacent to a routed unit is BAD, so you move said A unit away, then conclude the combat, and sure enough B BG routs. Now your unit A you are allowed to go back to, could possibly even be in a situation when it can now get a rear hit on the enemy bg... That is not realism its gaming the game.

Think of how frustrating it is to play as newcomer vs an experienced opponent that knows all the nuascnes, he knows how to trap your lights, knows exactly what paths they will take in an eavde and can "count the hexes" so to speak to ensure he can catch em... Now multiply that by 10 when you can go back and forth between units all you want.

Players already adopt unique and implausible battle formations due to the turn based nature ( cataphracts nestled between pike unit ( or behind them happy in th fact they cannot anrchy thru pikes because pikes are shock troops) waiting to dart out when POA's are in their favour.

The Ai is already sub par, and it will never tak einto account partial moves etc.

I 100% agree about the depth, and woud also place restricts on ly deploy near the flankls ( or have a cap on how many BG's can deploy with say 5-7 hexes on a flank.
I think it doesn't really matter which approach you take (on virtually any rule, actually) you are bound to find examples where something daft occurs as a consequence. In fact, FoG is full of daft things happening as a consequence of a reasonably sensible rule. I just feel that movement is supposed to be simultaneous. No army advances a unit it's full distance while the rest of the army waits, then to do the same with the next. The army advances as a whole, at the same time, and allowing units to complete part of their move and returning to them models this more closely.


Best Wishes

Mike
TheGrayMouser
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by TheGrayMouser »

MikeMarchant wrote: I think it doesn't really matter which approach you take (on virtually any rule, actually) you are bound to find examples where something daft occurs as a consequence. In fact, FoG is full of daft things happening as a consequence of a reasonably sensible rule. I just feel that movement is supposed to be simultaneous. No army advances a unit it's full distance while the rest of the army waits, then to do the same with the next. The army advances as a whole, at the same time, and allowing units to complete part of their move and returning to them models this more closely.


Best Wishes

Mike
I see where you are going with this and would ask you consider this: Are you going to play that way? ie move all your heavy infantry one hex, then move your cavalry 2 hexes, then go back and move your HI the rest of the movement so now you are simulating 'realistic movement? The problem is the new "feature" goes far beyond movement, its combat, evades etc all governed by more direct influence of the player in an unrealistic way.
Moving a unit out of the way so a better unit can impact charge, and then making the conscience decision that now that THAT combat went well, I can now safely move the partially moved unit to face another threat or , if the combat went bad, use the remainder of move points to do something beneficial. Basically maximizing the effiency of everything in a way that isn't realistic at all.

I'm having a hard time articulating what I mean, but basically the concept of "simultanious" action is is completely void when players can stop at every little sub-action and say hmm, the result of the prior sub action was favorable, thus allowing me to now use this unit to do this little sub-action and then depending how that goes I can do... etc etc. Its those little sub-actions and the DECISIONS that can then be made at such a scale that trouble me. A one and done approach still has issues as any turn based game will, but the effect is not nearly as crazy.


I just don't get how such a major change would just be plopped in the game. I don't ever recall in 6 years of this coming up in any thread or discussion or wishlist.
As an option, sure that would be fine.

Hope this doesn't sound arguementative, I do have some strong feelings about giving players too much control over everything. If I had my way the original anarchy rules would be back in the game, hehe.
( oh and also it would be phased based, just like the table top)

Hopefully Slitherine will show up and start exerting some direction on this forum. After all these years I don't really even understand what they were shooting for!

Cheers man!
MikeMarchant
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Re: Some impressions and bugs

Post by MikeMarchant »

No, I'm not suggesting I'd want to go as far as to be that 'realistic', moving each unit a tiny bit, before starting again at the beginning. But I'm not sure it's unrealistic for unit A to not fancy charging in on unit B, and then seeing Unit C do so successfully and having unit A change it mind and having a go too.

It does change the game, for sure, and it is a significant change, I agree. I suppose I am used to it in other games (like Pike and Shot, Battle Academy and so on). I suspect in some situations it will make it harder for newcomers, but in others it'll make it easier. I'm also sure you're right that some clever players will find all sorts of clever exploits, but then that's true for practically every other rule too.

One of the ways it'll make it easier for newcomers (and more experienced players) is that at the moment, when moving, you need to have a fairly clear idea of what the battlefield is going to look like at the end of the turn, and in a complex battle (especially whirling cavalry battles) that can be really difficult. I have often moved a unit only to later find some enemy cavalry unit evade across my front unexpectedly and I have lost the opportunity to engage it (perhaps in the rear). In a real battle of this kind, with everything moving at once, the unit might well see that enemy cavalry unit evading towards it and be able to adjust it's own advance to compensate. I suppose this is as relevant to taking opportunities to strike at enemy units that you might not have anticipated being available as it is to similar defensive actions, not putting your own unit in a vulnerable situation which you hadn't anticipated, but which a real unit in the field would have a fair chance of anticipating.


Best Wishes

Mike
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