What is the best order of attack?

[El_Condoro]

If planes, ships, armour and infantry can all attack a target, is there a (general) best order to attack in for maximum results? It seems to me it is best to attack with planes, ships, armour to break and infantry to mop up. Anyone got any real data on this? (Of course, other factors such as entrenchment, effectiveness etc. are important - I am just asking in a general sense).

Cheers

[ErichVonNeu]

Seems about right, although I usually start with fleets since I think they don't risk taking losses. Air often takes losses when attacking land units, I therefore think that it is always best to start attacking with fleets when possible. I do the opposite when attacking sea units. I start attacking with air and then fleets, since it takes time to rebuild fleets and you have to reach a port.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think the best attack strategy is to start with the BB shore bombardment to maybe inflict a loss and lower the efficiency. Then I switch to a fighter to see if enemy fighters can intercept. Then dogfight will occur and the fighter still can ground strike the target. I send fighters to different targets before continuing with tac bombers. The point is to make sure no enemy fighters can intercept my tac bombers. Then I send a tac bomber to the target.

What I will do thereafter depends upon the result after the tac bomber. If the enemy unit is down to red efficiency then I might attack it directly with armor to hopefully kill it. If the unit still has ok efficiency then I might consider attacking it first with an infantry corps to lower the efficiency further and taking away some steps. The reason for this is that the step losses will be absorbed by the cheaper infantry instead of the more expensive armor.

I don't like to attack directly with armor units if the odds show the defender can inflict 2 or more steps upon the armor. Then I can end up with 3 losses even if I manage to kill the defender. That's expensive to fix and will make the armor vulnerable to counter attacks.

I always plan my attacks so the units advancing into the enemy hex are the ones with the least losses. So I begin the attack with a unit that hopefully cant be reached by the enemy if it doesn't advance. If I become unlucky and suffer 3-4 steps then other units can attack and finish off the defender and my depleted unit will end up behind the front lines.

So my general order is: BB - fighter - tac bomber - infantry - armor. Against easy targets I go: BB - fighter - tac bomber - armor - infantry (if necessary).

I try if possible to use BBs and air units to get the defender down to red efficiency before I attack it with land units. This is especially important against enemies in non clear terrain (cities, rough, forest etc.). But if I don't have enough air units to achieve this then I try to make sure that every hex I designate for an attack will get at least one air strike. The key is to lower the entrenchment level of the defender to 0 if possible before attacking with land unit.

This way I tend to keep my armor units at good strength so they can continue the attacks. If you attack with the armor last then you usually suffer only 0-1 steps and then it can be used next turn as well instead of having to repair losses. This is particularly important in the beginning of Barbarossa when the German units storm eastwards at blitzing speed.

[ErichVonNeu]

Actually, I forgot about the fighters i my description. I found, like you did, Stauffenberg, that attacking with fighters before TAC is much more economical since they will start fighting off the fighters and still attack the ground unit. On the downside you may end up taking expensive losses twice on the fighters.

Regarding armor: Don't they have a greater shock effect on the enemy unit? Sometimes when you really have to take a hex, like an enemy capital isn't it better to attack with armor first to shock the enemy and then mop up with infantry who are supposed to be better at fighting in cities anyway (I think i read it on the forum somewhere) ?.

How do you use mech inf? I usually try to use them to exploit, ie move behind enemy lines to encircle them or secondary attack (after softening the enemy with panzer or inf). In North Africa and mid east I use them instead of infantry to reach the iraqi and iranian oil fast.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

You're right that armor units have great shock effect, but the same do tac bombers have. That's why I evaluate the hex after the air raids. If it's down to red efficiency then it doesn't matter whether you use infantry or armor first. You will inflict a lot of losses anyway.

But if it's still quite efficient then you can shock it further by using the armor first. This might be necessary if you don't have as many land units to use on the hex to ensure success. In such circumstances you just have to accept armor losses to ensure you capture the hex. But if you have enough units then it's best to use the infantry first to absorb the losses and let the armor finish off the hex with 0-1 steps lost. This is particularly important against cities because armor perform less efficiently in cities than in clear terrain.

I use motorized units against cities because they have better shock and attack factors than any other units against cities. So if you're not sure you have enough units to capture the city then I usually use the motorized unit after the air bombardment. This is e. g. important against Lvov and Brest-Litovsk on the first turn of Barbarossa. You can only get a few land units against the cities so motorized units increase the chance to take them out. I notice a significant difference between regular corps units and motorized units against cities. In addition the motorized units work well with armor units to help pocketing enemy units. So motorized units are great except for the oil consumption. So Germany must decide what he needs the most, one armor unit or 3 motorized units. They consume the same amount of oil.

[ErichVonNeu]

I did not know that mechinf have the best shock effect against cities but it makes sense. Armor units gets bogged down in cities fairly easy I guess. I will definitely adjust my strategy accordingly and surround major cities with mechanized infantry/infantry and use the armor to exploit and protect flanks, destroy incoming enemy units etc.

I totally agree with you that it is best to use BBs/Fighters/ATC to soften up units in preparation for a breakthrough and also not overdoing it. Once the efficiency of the defending unit is red then call in the infantry. Unless of course you have Air power to spare, in which case you can soften them up further.

Does the risk of air losses decrease with the efficiency of the defending unit?

[firepowerjohan]

Does the risk of air losses decrease with the efficiency of the defending unit?

The efficiency=effectiveness of a unit is how many % of them are battle ready so it does affect the amount of damage they can inflict on the enemy. A unit with effectiveness 0 will never ever hurt another unit, despites its skills or normal battle values.

[ErichVonNeu]

Hmm, are you really sure that can't happen? Im fairly certain that I have attacked encircled units with zero efficiency and still getting losses... It usually takes quite some time to mop up the huge pockets created during the initial Barbarossa attacks because of this.

[firepowerjohan]

Red means below 20% not the same as zero Are you sure?

[ErichVonNeu]

Will get back to you if it happens...

[Redpossum]

Neh, neh, neh, especially if you are the Russian, you need to check doctrine.

Yes, by all means start with Naval Bombardment. Then Fighters, then Tac Air, that's all totally correct. But the next part...

Motorised Rifle and Infantry are for creating breakthroughs. Armor is for exploiting those breakthroughs. Use your cheap grunts to slam a hole free of enemy ZOC. Bloody them as much as you must, use them up like kleenex if you must, but create that hole. Then your tanks drive through with their full movement and run free. Use any unexpended Motor Rifle units to shore up the shoulders of the penetration.

If you can do this in two places, you force the enemy to either withdraw, or face the grim chance of being encircled en masse.

That is how you win big. Not by killing units. Making the hole by forcing enemy units to retreat twice is just as good as making the hole by killing them, as long as you get the hole and it is free of enemy ZOC.

Think like Rokossovsky, not Montgomery

[El_Condoro]

Thanks for the tips guys - some very useful stuff.

[ErichVonNeu]

I'm trying to think like Guderian... (Montgomery was an ass in my opinion) I always use the armor to exploit as far as I can creating the biggest pockets possible. But there's always a risk exploiting to far and being vulnerable to counter attacks (if the pocket gets supplied, you're in trouble). I leave a couple of infantry units, mostly the minor allies (they're lagging behund anyway) to mop up the pockets created.

The question was mainly about what units fight best in cities. And it seems like it's mech inf and infantry if I understand things correctly, although I have noticed that armor are never useless in any kind of attack.

[ErichVonNeu]

I just figured... If you have a LOT of infantry units surrounding a hex (3-4), perhaps it's best to start attacking with infantry to lower the effectiveness of the enemy unit then bombard using tac-air and then attack with the remaining inf. Wouldn't this minimize the losses in tac-air which are very expensive to replace?

Also the use of armor when creating a breakthrough depends very much on the situation I think. If you have the opportunity to do it using infantry, then by all means thatäs the best. But if I'm not certain that it will do the trick, then I use Armor to shock the enemy and make sure that the breakthrough is established. On the eastern front you should have enough armor and mech inf when you launch Barbarossa to achieve breakthroughs, exploit and create pockets. (If you have been wise in your build up and production choices).

[Peter Stauffenberg]

One "problem" with CeaW is that units that you surround and put out of supply will not crumble over time unless you attack them. The immediate effect is that the surrounded units lose most of their movement allowance so they're trapped. But they lose efficiency quite slowly and the attacker don't hav time to wait until the efficiency falls close to 0 before attacking. So you end up having to attack these units asap so they become destroyed and you can move on.

Creating pincers with your armor units is very risky because both the units within the pocket and also units outside the pocket can launch repeated attacks upon the key armor units and maybe destroy these units. At least the armor units will be so depleted that they must be withdrawn from the forward location and repaired.

It would have been easier to create pockets if units out of supply would immediately lose most of their offensive power. They can still lose their defensive power the way they do now or maybe a little bit faster.

I therefore feel that the way to get moving in Russia in 1941 is to crush every unit you see at the front line and move eastwards when you have cleaned up the pockets. If the pockets are small enough and not dangerous (only garrisons inside the pocket etc.) then you only need a screening force of a few corps who can slowly clean up the pocket. Then the remaining units can march eastwards. The units cleaning the pocket can later be railed to the front.

A smart Russian player will run as fast as he can eastwards with all his units (except city garrisons) that survived the first turn. They run to the defense line you want to hold, either behind the Dvina / Dnepr line if you're bold or the line from Leningrad to Moscow to Rostov. Here you form a double defense line.

A smart Russian player will also keep his armor units in the third line of defense at key locations so the Germans can reach them when he initiates the attacks to start a breakthrough. 7 Russian armor units (plus newly built ones) can destroy any German armor pincers. As long as the Russians have these armor units out of reach it's not easy to create big pockets. It's safer to attack at one point of the front line and widen the gap so German units can ooze through the gap and threaten to fan out.

If the offensive power of the surrounded units would be significantly lower then it's less dangerous to create pockets.

There are two ways I've been successful in breaking a Russian double defense line with my Germans. One way is when the Russians have been careless and placed his armor units on the second line of defense. Then I use fighters to attack the Russian corps immediately in front of the Russian armor units. Then German infantry units attack and kill these front line units to create a hole. Then a tac bomber bombards the Russian armor unit and the German armor finish off the Russian armor without advancing further. This way you can destroy 4-5 Russian armor units the first turn in addition to several infantry units. Since you didn't advance too far into the Russian line the German armor units can only be attacked form 2-3 hexes. You should be able to survive that. Next turn you can be bolder and move against the remaining Russian armor units. Soon you will force the Russian front to retreat since you can pocket many units when the threat of armor counter attacks have disappeared.

The other way to attack is to counter attack the Russians if they become bold and storm the German defense line. He will usually use armor units to get some kills or severely killed German corps units. Withdraw these units and attack and destroy the exposed Russian armor units. The rest is similar to the first way.

I've seen German attacks upon a Russian double defense line quickly collapsing because the Germans used their armor units to attack Russian infantry units and exploit the hole in the front line without dealing with the Russian armor. The exposed German armor units can be killed or seriously depleted by Russian armor and remaning corps units. After losing several armor units the German offensive loses momentum and the Russians can contain the situation.

I think it's easier to use tac bombers and fighters to bombard 3-5 front line hexes and use infantry units to finish off each defender and not advance after combat. You can do this without taking much losses. No country can over time afford to lose 5 good corps units per turn. This is a very very effective way for the Russians in 1943 to prepare for a major offensive. You just bleed the German player of corps units every turn. In the beginning you can only afford to launch 3 attacks, but with more air units you can launch 4 or 5. The Germans must rebuild the losses every turn and replace them by moving second line units to the front and rail new units to the second line. Very soon the manpower level will fall below 75% and the unit quality will be lower. Since all German production goes to just replacing losses then he can't reinforce the west etc. Russia also uses a lot of fighters who force German fighters to fly intercept missions. If the Russians can get 3:2 or 2:1 odds in the number of fighters then they can afford the bigger losses. The Germans can't afford to repair all fighters and at the same time build new corps units to plug holes. Sooner or later he will have to start withdrawing to shorten the defense line. Then you can pursue with the Russians and use this atttrition tactics upon the Germans every turn until you can go all out with armor etc.

So armor is in my opinion very important to have in the reserve so you force the attacker to be more careful with his attacks.

I would have liked to advance like Guderian, but feel that in CeaW the Montgomery way is the safest if you want victory. You beat the Germans by using attrition war against him. The Germans will also crush the Russian defense line by war of attrition and not big encirclements. At least not against human opponents. The AI is not smart enough to know how to chop off the head of the dragon so he won't use his armor reserve to destroy the armor pincer spearheads instead of infantry units.

[Happycat]

I therefore feel that the way to get moving in Russia in 1941 is to crush every unit you see at the front line and move eastwards when you have cleaned up the pockets. If the pockets are small enough and not dangerous (only garrisons inside the pocket etc.) then you only need a screening force of a few corps who can slowly clean up the pocket. Then the remaining units can march eastwards. The units cleaning the pocket can later be railed to the front.

And Stauffenberg has demonstrated this to me sufficiently that I would NEVER recommend attempting breakthroughs and mad dashes into the rear in this game. A good way to lose your entire armor force It might work against someone who is new to wargaming, but employing such a tactic against an experienced gamer would likely result in catastrophe.

When you get to a point where enemy armor and air is largely non-existent, you might then consider the risk worth taking. In one PBEM I am now playing, my Allied opponent has lost any hope of competing with the Germans in the air, and his armor is either all gone, or at least gone from the Moscow front. His front line is badly fragmented. Even so, I find that if I stick my neck out too far, he is still capable of chopping at it in a very noticeable way. And as Stauffenberg has noted, it takes pocketed units a long time to decay. With twenty day turns, I can't afford to sit around for three or four turns waiting for the odds to improve---better to kill them head-on with the first attack.

[rkr1958]

In one PBEM I am now playing, my Allied opponent has lost any hope of competing with the Germans in the air, and his armor is either all gone, or at least gone from the Moscow front. His front line is badly fragmented.

O.K., that's our game (see Sea Lion thread) ... my estimate for victory has gone from 20 to 25% (earlier) to < 5%. But hey, I still have a chance and I'm not going down without a fight. Also, I think I'm still making the game interesting for Happycat.

[Happycat]

In one PBEM I am now playing, my Allied opponent has lost any hope of competing with the Germans in the air, and his armor is either all gone, or at least gone from the Moscow front. His front line is badly fragmented.

O.K., that's our game (see Sea Lion thread) ... my estimate for victory has gone from 20 to 25% (earlier) to < 5%. But hey, I still have a chance and I'm not going down without a fight. Also, I think I'm still making the game interesting for Happycat.

Interesting indeed! My manpower quality is slipping, I have barely enough oil to fry a bratwurst, never mind running several panzer corps, and I am still waiting for the US to show up on the other front. Sea Lion was probably an idea best abandoned

I guess it's too late to give England back?

[rkr1958]

In one PBEM I am now playing, my Allied opponent has lost any hope of competing with the Germans in the air, and his armor is either all gone, or at least gone from the Moscow front. His front line is badly fragmented.

O.K., that's our game (see Sea Lion thread) ... my estimate for victory has gone from 20 to 25% (earlier) to < 5%. But hey, I still have a chance and I'm not going down without a fight. Also, I think I'm still making the game interesting for Happycat.

Interesting indeed! My manpower quality is slipping, I have barely enough oil to fry a bratwurst, never mind running several panzer corps, and I am still waiting for the US to show up on the other front. Sea Lion was probably an idea best abandoned

I guess it's too late to give England back?

I accept! And while we're at it could I have France back too?