Swedish vs. Imperial Cavalry (Kuirassiers)

[Old_Warrior]

Is it me or do the Imperial Kuirassiers too closely resemble "tanks" on the battlefield? From what I read of the Swedish cavalry they LACKED pistols not having the manufacturing capacity of the Hapsburgs/other German principalities and therefore that is WHY they formed the small shot units that accompanied them into battle. Also they did not use caricole tactics which were proved to be ineffective.

The Wiki article I read said that although Tilly preferred for his cavalry to engage at close quarters with the pistol that at the Battle of Breitenfeld they actually resorted to no less than SIX attacks using the less effective caricole technique:

The combined Swedish-Saxon forces were to the north of Leipzig centered around hamlet of Podelwitz, facing southwest toward Breitenfeld and Leipzig. The battle began around mid-day, with a two-hour exchange of artillery fire, during which the Swedes demonstrated firepower in a rate of fire of three to five volleys to one Imperial volley.[16] Gustavus had lightened his artillery park, and each colonel had four highly mobile, rapid firing, copper-cast three pounders, the cream of Sweden’s metallurgical industry.[17] When the artillery fire ceased, Pappenheim's Black Cuirassiers charged without orders, attempting to turn the Swedish right. Instead, their attack fell between Johan Banér's line and the Swedish reserves.[18] They attacked with a caracole and were driven back, repeating the maneuver six more times to little effect.[19] The small companies of musketeers dispersed between the squadrons of horse fired a salvo at point blank range, disrupting the charge of the Imperialist cuirassier and allowing the Swedish cavalry to counterattack at an advantage. The same tactics worked an hour or so later when the imperial cavalry charged the Swedish left flank. Following the rebuff of the seventh assault, General Banér sallied forth with both his light (Finnish and West Gaetlanders) and heavy cavalry (Smalanders and East Gaetlanders). Banér’s cavalry had been taught to deliver its impact with the saber, not to caracole with the hard-to-aim pistols or carbines,[17] forcing Pappenheim and his cavalry quit the field in disarray, retreating 15 miles northwest to Halle.

So why are the Swedes noted as fighting with Pistol in melee? (shrugs)

Is there a Sword impact weapon? Surely it should be superior to pistols?

In the game the Imperialist Kuirassiers are FAR too effective. It usually takes me three Swedish cavalry units to subdue one of them. Often I lose two of mine to one of theirs.

Is there an alternate First Breitenfeld to play?

[rbodleyscott]

The tactics used by cuirassiers in the 1630s were not the ponderous 16th century rolling caracole manoeuvre (which was made obsolete for Cuirassiers by the Huguenot millers in the late 1570s), rather a tentative "charge" in close deep (10 ranks in the case of the Catholic League squadrons) formation at the trot with discharge of pistols at point blank range - which would not necessarily actually go into melee contact with the enemy if the enemy did not flinch. However, the intention was to go into contact (even if this did not always actually happen), rather than to shoot it out at a distance like Harquebusiers.

However, even medieval knights with lances are recorded as charging 7 times in some battles.

[Old_Warrior]

Well the number of charges was not the question: mainly why arm all the Swedish cavalry with pistol as their Impact weapon rather than Sword which to me is a better Impact weapon. If I a Hapsburg cuirassier and a group of Swedish cavalry attacks me with swords I am going to put my pistol away.

I think the historical evidence bears out that the impact of pistols was not as good as the game is giving them. That and certainly the Imperial cavalry were not "Superior" rated cavalry or acted like "tanks" at Breitenfeld.

The editor is at our disposal and I intend on changing things up a bit.

Is there a "Sword" impact weapon in "P&S" ... if not one should be added in and it should be better than pistols. It was the Swedish/German cavalry, not the Imperial, at Breitenfeld that ruled the day.

[rbodleyscott]

Is there a "Sword" impact weapon in "P&S" ... if not one should be added in and it should be better than pistols.

Yes, it is the "Impact_Mounted" capability, and it does beat pistols. If you want Swedish cavalry with Impact Mounted capability you will find them in the Editor, labelled "Armoured Horse (Shock)". Then you just have to pick the Swedish texture from the Unit Textures list in the editor.

[Old_Warrior]

Thanks! I plan on keeping 1/2 of the Imperial Kuirassiers as Superior and the rest as the next morale grade down from that. Pistols. Armored.

Swedes - Mounted Impact - same morale grades.

Want to see how it plays out before I say its final.

[fogman]

for what's it worth, I have thought about the problem when I did a version of breitenfeld in the triptych Sweden's high noon where units differ from the game's standards. the emphasis was on the superior firepower of the Swedish frontline as pappenheim's cavalry attacked. the particulars are not as important as the effects when it comes to game design. and the effects need reflect the probable outcomes according to historical outcomes. historical outcomes in turn dictate that the odds of pappenheim breaking through to be slim but in the game there should be great variance in the damage they can inflict.

[Old_Warrior]

Oh .. I forgot about your scenario! I need to try it out. Thanks for reminding me. I assume it has a MP version too.

[fogman]

yes, I enjoy playing hot-seat.