Poor troops

[Renier]

Anybody using poor troops? is it possible to win any battles with a high % of poor troops?

[nikgaukroger]

I've used BGs of Poor LF - 3 in my Helsinki Seljuqs - but not "real" troops so far.

[caliban66]

The fifth best score in Inevitable Tournament, in Granada, two weeks ago, was achieved by a Ptolemaic army full of poor pikes. Some of their opponents said that could not believe it. Others said that the secret was in his amazing wrist when throwing dice. Others, that it was just that the player did not say to their troops that they were "poor".

[jlopez]

Melchor's Ptolemaic army did indeed do well at Granada but the man has amazing luck. You had to see it to believe it, it drove his opponents to distraction!

Like Nik, I've used BGs of poor LF (I swear by them) to great effect but obviously they have rarely entered combat and most often against their wishes. While the cost savings for LF are justifiable, I can't really say the same for non-skirmishers. Numbers just don't make up for quality when in melee.

Mind you, an entirely poor army could be a lot of fun in an open competition. Later Achaemenid Persian is a likely candidate.

[SirGarnet]

Poor Pikes make up a lot for being Poor by being Pikes.

Other choices for testing how poor troops do?

Late Republicans or later Imperial Romans with poor legionaries? But most of the army is still average or better - any other ideas with more general poverty?

[carlos]

I use poor LH in my Dominate roman.

[daleivan]

Poor Pikes make up a lot for being Poor by being Pikes.

Other choices for testing how poor troops do?

Late Republicans or later Imperial Romans with poor legionaries? But most of the army is still average or better - any other ideas with more general poverty?

I've tried out poor legionaries with Late Republicans--as per the usual advice, adding a TC helps them in close combat--but, as you say, most of the army is far better

I wonder about using poor skirmishers-- I'm thinking of Later Granadine here, who can have masses of poor LF or MF with XB. Don't think I'd want to make the MF poor, but the LF? That could have some value as it would drop the cost by 2 points per base.

[SirGarnet]

I wonder about using poor skirmishers-- I'm thinking of Later Granadine here, who can have masses of poor LF or MF with XB. Don't think I'd want to make the MF poor, but the LF? That could have some value as it would drop the cost by 2 points per base.

I would think anything that doesn't actually need to fight to be useful and can get out of a scrape would work as Poor, such as delaying lights.

What about non-skirmisher types?

Raw Legionaries at 8 points would have the advantage in melee combat over typical Warbands costing 7 points due to a POA from superior armour that would outweigh the reroll effect for melee. They are at a disadvantage on Impact and in taking cohesion tests, but the melee advantage is significant and may justify the extra point. Other typical cases where the points are or are not justified?

Mike

[hammy]

I rather fancy trying a Byzantine with some BGs of poor drilled cavalry lancers. They are pretty cheap and in the right place deadly.

[donm]

Poor LF, unprotected, sling have to be the best value missle troops in the rules.

Always have as many as I can.

I have seen Poor pikemen used very effectively, but have not jet had the courage to try them myself

I certainly would not recommend Poor medium foot archers I still have the nightmares.

Don

[daleivan]

Poor LF, unprotected, sling have to be the best value missle troops in the rules.

Always have as many as I can.

I have seen Poor pikemen used very effectively, but have not jet had the courage to try them myself

I certainly would not recommend Poor medium foot archers I still have the nightmares.

Don

I would imagine that Poor unprotected LF with B or XB would be runners up for good value, if a point more a piece.

I imagine that the Poor pikemen were used in a 12 base BG? Kept in the center of the battleline? I'm curious how that played out--my friend Mark is looking at fielding Later Ptolemaics against my Late Republicans and we've wondered about using poor pikes in his army.

Amusing to contemplate poor pikes versus poor legionaries

[donm]

Daleivan,

Yes, all the BGs of poor pikemen I have seen were in 12's. Most lead by generals and with rear support. A use for mobs

Will let you know how thry go when I ahve a chance to try them.

Don

[vercingetorix]

I sometimes use poor skirmishers -- but mostly only to boost my army size

[shall]

I have used poor spearmen in big blocks to give a large, cheap and reasonably solid centre in armies. They hold up well against mounted troops but suffer badly vs good quality foot troops of course. They are not too vulnerable to shootingas by going 3 deep they can usually avoid having take any tests and having to suffer their horrible rerolls.

One factor that is often missed is that large cheap BGs often take several enemy BGs out of a game inthe process of losing, thereby opening up lots of opportunties elsewhere. A 6 wide BG is usually taking at least 2 enemy ones out of the game for a while. I lost 2 such BGs to Romans but they kept 5 legionary BGs busy for the loss of 4 APs.

I have also found a good plan with a large BG of poor spearmen is to have a TC with them but not put him in in round 1 but instead put him in at melee if they did OK in round 1. Even poor spearmen can hold troops at bay after they have survived ther initial risk of going DISR and letting swrodsmen into their midst. However if you put him in at the beginning they do lose

Finally poor troops are a magnet for enemy troops so they can be quite interesting to draw enemy into a position that is favoruable. I ahve seen people attack past rough terrain to get to them and find the risks backfired when some decent supporting MF troops (Arm Sup Imp Foot Dailami in one case) descend on their flank after a couple of round of combat where they didn't break the poor troops.

I would add though that and army with 2 or 3 front line BGs of poor troops is "not for the faint hearted!"

Si

[Ghaznavid]

The problem is, only few armies can field large BGs of poor spear (not sure about classical armies, but among medievals the only ones that spring to mind is the single BG of Adath Milita that various muslim armies can field). In most cases you are limited to field them in BGs of 6-8, which is to small for my taste.

[shall]

Yes many are 6-8s but not bad if there are a few of these.

Try some of the arab ones such as Seljuk Turk or Syrian in the Swords & Scimitar list

Abdath Militia 9-12 with 1/3rd Ps. 8 poor spear at 4 and 4 poor ps at 3 = 44 points for a 12 base BG that is a niuce central obstruction for all the mounted troops to work around.

Then put 6 poor mob behind them for 12 pts a BG for rear support.

They don't do bad and make for an interesting magent for enemy troops that you can then exploit at times. And at 56 points for 2 BGS its not a bad centrepiece for the army perhaps.

Si

[donm]

What about a couple of 12 element BGs of Poor German Pikemen backed up with a large 12 element BG of mob all for 120 points.

Not bad in 15mm, but who has the couarge to use in 25mm

Don

[spike]

What about a couple of 12 element BGs of Poor German Pikemen backed up with a large 12 element BG of mob all for 120 points.

Not bad in 15mm, but who has the couarge to use in 25mm

Don

Don

I have some thing of an idea for Fridays practice clash, on the poor troop subject! (1/2 the armies BGs will be poor )

Spike

[donm]

Spike,

Unfortunately I do not have an army that can do that in 15mm. The army I planned to use does have 4 x BGs of poor troops.

I was hoping to give you practice with the army you are going to use over the weekend.

Don

[gozerius]

I recently ran a Medieval German army at 600 pts with 4 BG of poor foot, 2 BG Xbows, 2 BG D spears, 2 BG sup Knights, 2 BG armored Cav (Xbow,sword), 2 BG Hungarian horse archers. The spear sat back and guarded the camp, the Xbows made a bee line for the uneven terrain and the knights crashed through the enemy center while the mounted x bows and horse archers harried the enemy knights on the right flank. A decisive win. Note: Knights are awesome against MF in the open. Do not try to support MF with more MF. You are just asking for it.

Greg Boeser