42 west core choice, what and why would you choose?

[Stephen1024]

So my best units I have just finished streets Moscow:

Grenadier Attack +2 Initiative +3 (2 Star experience) No medals
Fallshirmjager Defence +2 Movement +1 Knights Cross
Fallshirmjager Defence +2 initiative +3 Movement +3 Knights Cross
IVE Panzer Attack +1 Defence +2 Knights Cross
IVE Panzer Attack +4 (has 2 attack bonuses) Knights Cross
IIIJ2 Panzer Sotting +2 Defence +2 Attack +2 Iron Cross 1st Class
IVF Panzer Attack +1 Defence +1 Initiative +2 Spotting +1 Movement +1 Iron Cross 2nd Class
KV-1B Attack +1 Iron Cross 2nd Class
Panzer II Flamm +1 spotting Iron Cross 2nd Class
Marder IIA Defence +2 Iron Cross 2nd Class
17cm K 18 +2 movement ( 2 movement bonuses) Iron Cross 1st Class
Sturmpanzer Defence +3 Iron Cross 2nd Class
Sturmpanzer Attack +1 Iron Cross 1st Class
Sturmpanzer Attack +1 (not same unit as above) Iron Cross 1st Class
Wurfrahmen 40 Defence +3 Iron Cross 2nd Class
StuGIIIB Attack +2 Iron Cross 2nd Class
8.8cm FlaK 36 range +1 Attack +3 Knights Cross
Bf109E Defence +2 Iron Cross 1st Class
Bf109F Attack +2 Defence +1 Initiative +2 Iron Cross 2nd Class
Bf109F Attack +3 Defence +2 Initiative +2 (only 2 Star experience) No medals
Ju 87D Attack +9 Defence +9 Movement +1 Iron Cross 1st Class
Ju 87D Attack +3 (2 attack bonuses) Knights Cross
Me110F Attack +1 Initiative +6 Iron Cross 1st Class
Do 217E Attack +2 Iron Cross 1st Class

All units are 375 experience unless stated otherwise.

SE Units
Gebirgsjager Attack +4 (2 Attack bonuses) Knights Cross
Gebirgsjager Movement +2 Knights Cross
IVE Panzer Defence +2 Iron Cross 1st Class
IIIJ2 Panzer No Bonus Yet Iron Cross 2nd Class

Which 8 units would you choose take into 42 west and why? What would you upgrade them to?

Will update info if anything interesting happens last battle of 41 Gc

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Rudel. (why not. he is fantastic)
Pz4 with +4 attack (very strong)
Wurfram with +3 defense (most artillery doesn't last long. with this hero it should. plus the wurfram is powerful)
Falk with 1 range 3 attack (best AA I've seen yet)
17cm w/ +2 moves (how often does this happen?)

Any other units with those "super heros" (ie having multiple bonuses attached to the one hero).

+ your SE units.

- BNC

[Stephen1024]

My thoughts so far

Fallshirmjager Defence +2 initiative +3 Movement +3 Knights Cross I choose him as movement bonus means fast travel high number kills should get 3rd hero soon, I am hoping for attack hero round him off +2-3 would be perfect.

IIIJ2 Panzer as he multi hero with spotting which will be useful, the +2 attack and defence make him strong unit, kills he starting come into his own should get 2nd hero soon, initiative or movement heros be perfect here.

IVE Panzer +4 attack strong attacking unit but hoping for last hero defence +2-3 to round him of, has very high kill count.

Wurfrahmen 40 +3 defence might keep him alive and he hits infantry so hard, hoping for attack and movement round him off.

17cm K18 with +2 movement so makes tow arty useful but good attack or defence complete this unit.

8.8cm FlaK 36 +1 range and +3 attack this thing eats pillbox, tanks, aircraft most time with bit over strength will do 1 shot kills. Has 870 kills, 11 infantry, 37 tanks, 15 pillbox, 10 trains ironically 3 fighters and 1 tac haha. Would love movement bonus or defence bonus.

Ju 87D attack +9 Defence +9 movement +1 Rudel best chance against allied airpower, think I will upgrade him to Me110F. Has 494 kills so should get 2nd hero soon.

Last unit always hard choice I love put the Do 217E with attack +2 as its best strat bomber I ever had, and it has 408 kills which for a strat till end 41 is amazing. The issue is allied air eat it alive.

So I probably go for last unit Bf109F attack +2 defence +1 initiative +2 reasoning slightly less bonus then my other Bf109F but he on 299 kills other is only 19 kills, might get really nice hero soon. Hoping for defence hero next.

But things can change we see what next map does.

[Stephen1024]

I stand corrected its 9 units plus SE

I finished 41 no major changes or heroes.

Tanks will upgrade to IVF2. Rudel Me110F will put over strength to max as will lose prestige.

Not sure on units yet waiting see suggestions

[simcc]

Well here is my suggestion and reason, you make me wanna start west campaign after reading this hahaha, I am fren toy at Stalingrad 13th attempt for GC now

1. Oleh he is inf that have high movement and initiative and he don't really take damage due to high initiative, I have change him to grenadier and he smash most infantry with ease, if he gain defence heroes would be perfect to hold any lines.
2. Albert he is tank that have +4 attack, I gave him pz4 with his +4 attack even enemy tanks are no match, if gain additional attack hero will be perfect.
3. Rudel and his stukas no need explaination on this one
4. Helmut the tac bomber, he is capable of holding and attacking and additional attack or def heroes is great
5. Heinz (IIRC) that's a tanker that have + spotting, movement etc lots of goodies, he is my vanguard scout hence I put him in pz3
6 17cm arty with +2 that's the best you can get for arty lovers
7 flank with range n attack well you said it, smash everything
8. Fighter +3 attack, +2 initiative

That you have overall a composition that can take on the allies. I remember that campaign they will gives you a lot of random unit include conscript hahaha, it's one of the best campaign I like. Good luck

[Stephen1024]

Hi simcc

Yeah I love this campaign to with US GC coming out soon thought be good to play again.

I hope this thread help those new and for some us be playing while teach us some new tricks or ways of thinking and seeing things

Thanks both simcc and BNC appreciate the ideas.

[ptje63]

Apart from other good suggestions...

KV1B... tough to beat... will survive for long time and then upgrade...

[Stephen1024]

Yeah the KV-1A and B, and KV-85 are saving grace not keen on the KV-1C as lose a movement point.

Germans just not got anything nice in Russia till IVF2, even with that KV wins out on armour and fuel. As for Sherman haha.

[captainjack]

The KV1B and C are good for general combat well into 43 East, but even the KV1C becomes ineffective in 44. I find the KV1A is a bit feeble, but it's a reasonable replacement for the Char B1s for use against soft targets.

I rarely have a problem with the 4 move of the KV1C, but if I movement was important for my play style I'd never keep the Char's for so long. The Sherman's have little going for them. Decent soft attack and initiative doesn't really compensate for slow speed and rubbish armour. I've used them as expendables on point duty, and as emergency replacements when they were the only full strength unit in the reserve, but otherwise they go straight into the disband pile.

[Stephen1024]

True points but for me I use lot fast moves so movement good quality for me.

US GC soon all we got look forward to is the Sherman for most of the war, scream take service revolver shoots self. At least the British gave it a 17 pounder.
Russians have good tanks why oh why did the Americans stick with Sherman?

[simcc]

I use a lot of fast movement also for my play style. Slow movement unit instead to rely on roads and rail too much hence less maneuverable compare to fast army not to mention staying away from close terrain hex means it have very limited movement place on map to be effective, also fast army can flank arty, AA easier.

German tank do not have the armor to stand up against Russian counterpart but their attack power is far better than Russian side, hence I prefer fast army and strike first rather than wait for KVs and T34 to smash in my lines. I value initiative and attack heroes the most. Take for example Oleh have +3 move and put him as grenadier that's 5 hex movement infantry and he can position so well that even tanks are no match for him. He is the only infantry that I overpower it and at strenght 12 in close combat with tanks it's usually 0-7 prediction without suppression, pair with a strategic bomber it's magic.

Looking forward for US GC, their tank is plain useless haha but they have wonderful planes and arty to make up for that. Total differently playstyle hehe

[captainjack]

I often use Oleh Dir as a pioneer, as the main limitation of Pioneers is that the initiative is low. Oleh Dir's +3 makes them very dangerous, although he's also a good grenadier. +3 attack or +3 defence (both would be best) are great for a second hero.

As for the Shermans being a bit rubbish, it sounds like you haven't played Nikki's Italian version of Afrika Korps!
The Italian tanks are almost complete rubbish - even the better(?) ones have GD 8, SA 5, HA6 and move 4. At least they are cheap to reinforce and repair. The benefit of playing forces with poor equipment is it makes you find a way to compensate, as well as making you appreciate the 11 defence of a Sherman.

[Stephen1024]

Captainjack

Yes Italian armour is worse then Sherman.

As for your point about tactics yes thats correct, America has good arty and good air power so Sherman and tank destroyers not so hard use. Tactics are simply use lot of arty and if good weather maps bring lot of air power. Use them to suppress the enemy let Shermans and tank destroys finish of. Remember to not leave Sherman's and tank destroyers on bad ground and never leave them without cover support from arty.

Sherman doesn't want find itself on german turn without arty as tanks will make mess of sherman's.

I know Captainjack you probably already know that but, its there for anyone new. I will try that mod you mention, sounds devilishly challenging.

Unfortunately not having the ability in US GC to mix USA and British equipment means can't balance each others weaknesses. As you stated different strengths and weaknesses are great as they force us learn best way use. Also I like that sometimes those challenges teach me new ways use things.

Simcc and Captainjack

As for Oleh Dir's unit I made him Fallshirmjager (para) By Sevastopol he has 415 experience, 1323 kills, Movement +3 Initiative +3 Defence +2 has the highest honour in my core Knights Cross with Oak Leaves. Battle Honours he earned Lodz, Oscarsborg, Eben-Emael, The Hague, Sedan, and Dunkirk. Its destroyed 85 infantry units to date. Some point I probably make him Grenadier, might leave him as Fallshirmjager but not sure. I use early war lot of Fallshirmjager and Gebirgsjager as they have more movement ability, I keep couple Pioneer units for city busting, but that said my Fallshirmjager score 5/1 predictions and end up lot time with 5/0 scores on city attacks. As for Grenadiers I often not bother in start with as I not found them that useful early war, that changes after 43 as then Grenadier's become most useful infantry.

Using Oleh Dir as Fallshirmjager I found that extra movement gets me in and out trouble fast, which very handy as using fallshirmjager often means no support at all. Few times a planned drop goes wrong and I had a unit intercepted by fighters to. Having Oleh Dir as fallshirmjager has often enabled me to move him as cover for weak or off target unit. The movement and Initiative often mean I can flank with him and when I attack he is generally first to fire and therefore means less for enemy fire back with. He great against most bunkers, not going help in Sevastopol as bunkers there not much touches them. 43 onwards I think he probably be forced become grenadier.

I would be interested in you guys telling me more about your Oleh Dir. I am interested in discovering what you guys found using him as pioneer and grenadier from early on.

Idea what I found with infantry attacking city early war Fallshirmjager 5/1 prediction, often 5/0 outcome. Gebirgsjager often 5/1 prediction and 5/1 outcome, Grenadier mostly 3/1 prediction and 3/1 outcome, pioneer has frequent prediction 7/0 often scores 7/0.

I like that pioneer has such good score but he often can only move 1 or 2 movement without becoming transport. I keep pioneers as just city busting. Fallshirmjager have good city score, good bunker scores and better movement so multi purpose infantry and I can use them to take out distant targets. I have couple Gebirgsjager for fast movement especially where mountains are. I do have couple of grenadiers early war but mostly for tank heavy maps. Thats how I use my infantry early war. As said by 43 all thats changed and Grenadiers become the most used, but I do keep pioneers for city busting.

Look forward to replies to this thanks guys.

[GSlapshot]

I upgrade Rudel to an Me410 and for more of enjoyment use the all equipment cheat and use all the prestige you will lose on turn 1 to uprade your force to Tigers, Panthers and 1943 weapons.

[captainjack]

Don't forget that as you are going to lose a lot of prestige, you can convert units to another type, change transports etc.to get the best from your heroes.

Personally I take Rudel in a 110 and Bar as my fighter. Then usually I pick all the special heroes (the ones with more than one attribute) - Oleh Dir (usually as a Pioneer or Grenadier) and Kerscher are easy choices, but Rondorf doesn't always make it if I have some other good heroes (eg +5 defence, +6 attack, +3A, +2D).

After that you have to think a bit. Bear in mind you have a small force so you need versatility and the ability to do damage and survive with limited backup. Anything with +3 A or D is worth considering, but then again a Stug with +1 range may be more use than a +3 attack in a small force, and +1 move can be more use for artillery and AA than +1 range (especially on towed units) as it allows you to protect other units.

[simcc]

Stephen,

My style of play is always setup task force style to handle certain area and objective example as below:

Task force Volks - usually heroes with defence or initiative will be assign here
Mobile task force usually taking cente map or objective role hence this force always have high mobility
2 infantry, 1 pz3, 1 pz4, 2 mobile arty, 1 mobile AA and a recon

Task force Vanguard - usually heroes with sight and movement will be assign here
Mobile task force for flanking usually will support main force on flanking
2 cavalry later motorbikes, 1 pz3, 2 mobile arty

Task force Fist - usually heroes with defence and attack will be assign here
Main foot army that design to take up heavy firepower or city fights
2 pioneer, 2 grenadier, 1 pz flame, 3 tow arty, 1 88s

Task force Faust - reserve task force usually green unit
This task force is reserve and replenish other task force unit if they died and if my unit have max experience usually this task force unit will take their place to train up, I learn that facing russian your unit will die very very fast if they have no experience so this task force was setup and accumulate experience for russian campaign.

Task force Jäger - usually special heroes will be here
Support role and task individual to other task force
Oleh - I put him as grenadier due to I use him to fight everything, he is like the hammer to my army. I prefer him as grenadier rather than paratrooper because I use him to bust tanks, I usually will suppress tank and use other inf to attack and force tank to retreat into close terrain and Oleh will finish him off. I usually had him at strenght 12, stats vs inf (excluding SMG russian in city) is usually 5-0 without suppress and will be higher if suppress enemy, vs tanks 7-0 prediction in close terrain and 2-0 or 3-1 on open. If the tank been chase to close terrain with strenght 7 below he is dead vs Oleh in close terrain, I am at Stalingrad now with Oleh scoring over 80 tank kills. I didn't put him as para because para have 4 ammo compare to 5 ammo grenadier and I think I will spend too much time reloading as my Oleh usually do not have defensive arty support as he is chasing enemy deep into enemy territory so I figure less ammo means instant death if I make mistake. Sometimes he got surrounded and can't even resupply and as grenadier he can hold out for 1-2 turns before my task force comes to his rescue. Also he score over 50 arty kills as I always move him behind enemy lines for arty hunting.

Albert also is my favorite hero as he have +2 attk, spotting and movement, he usually is the chaser for Oleh meaning forcing other tanks to retreat and I did get a +2 attk second hero on him makes him +4 attk and I put him in pz3 and usually it 6-0 vs tanks excluding KV series.

Rudel - no explanation needed lol he is God mode

Overall my army lacks AA namely 88s as my airforce is very strong, I don't use stukas much as I find without escort it's expensive to use hence I favor 109s and strategic bombers. Fighter is great at taking away entrenchment and strategic bomber can suppress even the heaviest tanks and Albert can chase them and Oleh can finish them off.

I will try in future to use Oleh as paratrooper I do like the extra initiative and infantry, bunker busting style. Also forget to mention there is another hero I think name is friedrich also have +2 move and +3 attk infantry, he pair very well with Oleh.

Care to share how para Oleh survive city fights especially vs russian SMG on Stalingrad? I imagine it will be hard as reload too often also if weather is bad or surrounded no resupplying or half supply means he will be on defensive rather than offensive most of the time. All russian city fight is hell for infantry not to mention that 4 fortress in Sevastopol hahaha.

[Stephen1024]

Simcc

How to keep my para alive in Stalingrad he backed up with 17cm K18 with +2 movement and has Wurfrahmen 40 +1 attack + 3 defence, if anything even SMG alive after the arty kick then para just cleans up. I am just starting Stalingrad with it now, if he can survive hell he break 1500 kills and 100 infantry units. As for ammo in city fight not really issue as the arty need to reload lot so I will move strike till half ammo gone on which ever unit first, reload all same turn. Using movement troops as para, does mean after resupply he can move good distance, with 17cm having double movement hero he can follow, neither become transports. If I had bad play though with no movement bonus for any troop I probably use Oleh as pioneer or Gebirgsjager early war.

I have 3 para's as my main core force, Oleh has +3 movement +3 initiative and +2 defence, next has +1 movement +3 attack and last has +2 defence +1 movement. As you can see I use those with movement and defence generally as para. There mobility is good defence. Due to air operations meaning lack of support paras need move fast in and out of trouble. Oleh is para recon. 2 para will normal destroy most city troops in one turn. By using 3 para I can also do a pair next to enemy with 1 back up, if I get problem then back up take place of weak unit enabling me to heal weak unit. If big problem run fast. During close air operations I try keep Stuka as back up. As said by start 43 probably turn paras into Grenadiers as air operations become way to risky late war.

I split my core into different number groups depending on map, I also will swap units around. I keep larger force than needed and then use whats best for each job.

I always have at least 2 88s in my core there great for defensive maps, currently my best 88 this play through has +1 range +3 attack and has 1001 kills, to date has 45 tank kills, 17 bunkers, but only 4 fighters, 2 tacs and 2 strats. As you can see I use my 88 for mostly ground work. Line your 88s behind tanks and when your turn move the 88 up and often early war 1 hit tank kill. I also use bait units too get enemy close to my 88s, you wouldn't want be non core unit in my army.

I suggest trying Stukas early war they are great, once the Russians get better air force which there starting do now at the end 42, you can change stuka to Me110/Me410. I use Me110/Me410 lot as I can reduce number fighters I require, when no enemy fighters, my 110/410 can ground attack. If using 1.20 soft cap, I have couple of FW190 fighters take first shot on enemy fighters and finish them with either Me109 or finish with Me110/410, bomber I take care of with Me109 and or 110/410. As said empty sky my 110/410 are used on ground attacks. Fighters if your lucky and ground attack might hit point or 2 max.

My 88s when not attacking ground targets sit next to arty as support to stop unexpected attacks from air.

Strat bombers are so useful, yet when first play you feel they do next nothing. Current play through I got 2 strats 1 has +2 attack he really great. Can make useful recon unit at times to.

Albert is great unit especially how early you get him, I got second spotting hero so current Albert is +2 attack +2 Defence +3 spotting, I got him in a Panzer IIIN as its got high close defence which means he good in city and with +3 spotting I not walking blind always arty back up. I try keep him next to Oleh in city.

I like Heinz Rondorf but he late hero. He heads a group as he got +1 attack +1 defence +1 movement +2 initiative +1 spotting. As late hero gives him good chances at making up some kills and experience at the front.

I always keep pair of KV-1B I capture as they make up for lack of heavy tank mid war. I keep pair of SU-122 AT as there great, bulk up my AT force. Early war I keep the first Pak I am given use it bit gain some experience, keep it for exchanging into Mobile AT at end of 39, once mobile AT available I buy 1 so got 2 AT they train up on mopping up duty. Late war AT class comes into its own, if you got pair with experience they can hit hard.

I always have 1 Panzer II flamm as its great in city.

Fredrick and Helmut are both Grenadiers in training so they be great force in 43. Oleh probably join them.

I have force of 12 infantry most maps I take only part of that force out, but for city maps they all come out.

Tanks I have 14 tanks including 3 SE tanks. I will use best tanks and rotate others, see what heros I get, later will upgrade the best tanks with good heroes.

Recon 2 or 3 depending on usage. (If somethings going die on you, then normally its recon). I use 2 max in a map.

9 Arty units, there mix mobile, towed, wurfrahmen, and StugIIIB. Depending on heroes depend what arty I buy.

Air force made up 5 fighters 3 are given hero units. 3 Stuka including Rudel, which gain lot experience and kills fast early war, 2 Me110 1 hero, 2 Strat bombers.

Rudel crazy as Stuka till enemy air becomes to much he gain lot experience fast. Currently 1005 kills already I had him for about 1 year. I will upgrade him to Me410 than god help air and ground units. He got +1 spotting hero which is pity but at least he can recon while he flying about.

That I hope give you few ideas, if you got questions about anything just ask.

[Stephen1024]

Hi Simcc

Finished Stalingrad last night am at docks next, Oleh survived, was complete slog, as always feels like your going way to slow will never make it. I managed keep my core alive, but took a good amount of damage, prestige was at loss from experienced replacements, but thats expected I got enough prestige not worry about that.

Panzer IIIN are great in city, Paras do need lot reloading but so does arty. Trying to not take damage not possible so the low ammo not issue. Weather was ok for parts and rained more then I of liked stopped my air force from playing bigger part. I forgot that there sneak attack from enemy around the Italian position and had use air force to cover that while moving units in, cost couple of Italian units lifes but there not core. Lucky no rain or I got lose from it. KV-1B's I have were useful but had keep them of city hex, KV take good bashing. Flamm tank was very useful, but big life saver was arty support.

[simcc]

In Stalingrad I always got punish if I move to far ahead, all 3 Stalingrad scenario. I always find Stalingrad challenging no matter how many times I played it. I wish there was an easier way or maybe I need to find a better way as the AI combination is crazy and very effective especially SMG, conscript and T34 hiding behind.

I had 3 advancing team for Stalingrad. North, central and south. Each was handled by a task force, I keep my air force at a minimal as I need as many infantry I need to capture all flag and the important KV tank that is hidden. My force as below IIRC as I am away from my PC atm.
Air Force
4 fighters, 1 stukas, 2 Henkel.
I use fighter to clear the air so my bombers can get to work, also my fighter is always buzy hitting SMG and conscript ahead of my assault team to lower the entrenchment. I find this very important as by the time I reach middle or the back part all enemy have entrenchment of 8 which is crazy hard to destroy because my unit have taken damage so my fighter will take turn to reduce the entrenchment to at least 4 before my ground hit it.

North army
I place 2 pz3, 2pz4, 2 para, 1 grenadier, 1 inf and 2 wuf. I use 2 para to land near the north east airfield to take care of the infantry there so 2 tanks can rush in and smash the AA guarding airfield and take the air field early. I find this very important as there is some enemy planes there and I can finish them off early with my 4 fighters. The rest will take time to take center objective before turning up to take the north east objective.

Central army
2 pio, 2 inf, 4 tow arty. They handle the partisans first then went into middle section and start the slow clearing and will meet up with north army at center objective and assault on the hidden KV location. Usually they have no air support as I find with proper use of Italian as bait I can get the entrenchment away as the russian moved. All my italian ally are dead by the end of battle as I treat them as cannon folder even use them to attack just to take away entrenchment. I find it useful as the replacement is cheap and you get refund 50% by end of battle.

South army
Most of my goodies are here. Oleh with Friedrich and 2 ss grenadier, 2 ss panzer and 2 wuf. Stukas rudel also is here as I find most of the tanks are here and using rudel I can clear the area of tanks by turn 12 if weather is good then he can move up to help. Oleh and friedrich shines here as the combination seldom need arty support or bombers except when I face entrenchment 5 above then I call in bombers to help. The took down 2 objective south without much help and proceed to north east of map to finish taking all the flags as they have good mobility hence they can reach that area. Others I use them to capture the south flags which I find very waste of resources as it's very slow. Ss grenadier have I chance vs SMG without arty help.

I didn't use panzer flame as my panzer flame got eaten by all the t70 and t34 on the first run so I figure well can't really afford to spend arty on protecting them as I want to capture all flags.

[Stephen1024]

I stopped pushing myself take every flag on maps like stalingrad just not worth the loses to take all. I go for DV and get KV-1C thats it.

I got to admit the map is slow and very draining, as need watch everything you do so carefully.

That said this time I did take all flags.

Will start 42/43 west once finish 42 east.

During Stalingrad Docks Oleh got final hero, I was so happy he got +3 attack which he hard earned, So he +3 attack +2 defence +3 initiative +3 movement.