Axis Minor Nations

[Carius]

I think it would be nice to have new equipment and scenarios add to Panzer Corps for the Axis minor Nations like Hungry, Romania and Finland. Even a second look at the Italian equipment would be a nice addition.

[goose_2]

+1 totally agree

[goose_2]

Of course they could make a mod with just the take over of Austria and I would probably buy it.

[Panzerpimp]

My thoughts exactly. After Afrika Korps and Winter war in Soviet Corps an opportunity to play as Finland or Italy would be a great addition.

[McGuba]

I think it would be nice to have new equipment and scenarios add to Panzer Corps for the Axis minor Nations like Hungry, Romania and Finland. Even a second look at the Italian equipment would be a nice addition.

Hungry for more?

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

[goose_2]

I love this kind of stuff just do not know how to download mods as everytime I try my computer gets all screwy

[verstaubtgesicht]

Count in the Croatian Nazis - Ustasha - they had a whole division annihilated at Stalingrad...

[Stephen1024]

I love to see bit more minor nations. I also like actually be able buy some of the foreign units during campaigns like GC but most time I told not enough slots.

[CroCop96]

Disclaimer: this is a strictly historical post with checked facts.

I love minor nations on both sides, and there are some pretty interesting stories. I am from an ex-Yugoslav country so I know the most about Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and other countries which constituted Yugoslavia.

Actually, did you know that the Yugoslavian Partisans numbered 800 000 active, uniformed members in 1945? Unlike some other, more famous guerrilla movements, Yugoslavs managed to liberate their own country with minor Soviet and Allied military assistance, also tying up 30-40 Axis divisions at times.

WW2 in Yugoslavia was very complicated, there were Croatian nazis (ustaše), communists of all nationalities (partizani), Serb royalists (četnici), Slovenian nazis, Albanian partisans, Albanian collaborators, Italians, Germans... and almost all of them waged war on one another at times... 20 years before WW2, all other nations in Yugoslavia were displeased with the Serb dominance (the King was a Serb, the Serbian secret police murdered other nation's intellectuals, opened fire on peaceful protests, etc. etc.), so most of the people couldn't wait to grab a rifle and just start shooting. Serbs invented the term ''Yugoslavia'' (the land of the Southern Slavs) in 19th century to justify bringing all the Southern Slavs in one nation, which was actually ''Greater Serbia''. Many naive intellectuals believed in this noble goal and so embraced the idea of Yugoslavia... Of course, the idea to unite all Southern Slavs in a time where small nations were almost non-existent is not bad, but it was a lie in order to cover up Serbian pretensions. And so Serbs occupied Croatia, Bosnia, and Slovenia in 1918, after they left Austria-Hungary. Unfortunately, all nations except Serbs were treated as inferior, and so several resistance groups formed - after Serbs killed the Croatian popular leader Stjepan Radic in 1928, the ''ustaše'' (''rebels'') organised in Hungary and Italy. They would later become affiliated with Nazis, but at the moment they just wanted freedom. They cooperated with the Macedonian freedom fighters as well. At the same time, both Croatian and Serb (and all others, but Serbs and Croats were the most numerous nations) communists also organised resistance. It is worth noting that most of the common folk were of mild conservative or liberal, republican affiliation, with a national sentiment - everyone who was not a Serb wanted more liberties, but most of the people didn't support neither the communists nor the nazis. And so the Germans invaded in 1941 - most of the army just threw down their weapons (!) because nobody wanted to fight for a foreign, oppressive king. Only the royalist četniks (chetniks) continued the resistance. They were mostly Serbs, partly Montenegrians (some ultra nationalist Serbs still claim that Montenegrians are Serbs). Other nations welcomed the Germans as liberators, of course, the joy didn't last long. Croatians were not independent for 900 years, since their kingdom, and so everybody welcomed the ustaše, but when they ceded the Croatian coast to Italy and started shooting communist intellectuals, people were not that happy anymore! And so we had Croat Partisans, Croat Ustaše militia (like Waffen-SS), Croat Homeguard (like the Wehrmacht, but somewhat unreliable as they were regular folks who didn't care for partisans and ustaše, like I said), Serb četniks, Serb partisans, Slovenian, Macedonian, Albanian, Montenegrin Partisans, Slovenian Nazis, Albanian Fascists... the četniks cooperated with the partisans for the first few months, but then waged war on them, as well. Germans gave semi-independence to the ''Independent'' State of Croatia, but Serbs were under a strict military governance . They had an even smaller degree of ''independence'', and so they operated an unmotivated army similar to the Croatian Homeguard which worked with the četniks. However, the Italians helped the četniks, wanting them to ethnically clean Bosnia (then part of Croatia) and Dalmatia (Croatian coast) of Croats, so they could colonize it more easily... the Croatians sometimes officially cooperated with četniks, but entered open conflict with them because of 1918-1941 reasons, and their many murders and rapes (of course, all sides committed crimes, but the četniks were the worst). Also, the Germans formed a couple of Croat-manned, German-officered ''legionary'' divisions to serve as cannon fodder for the Reich. The Italians did this on a smaller scale. The Germans also formed a couple of SS-divisions, one made of Muslim Croats (present-day Bosniaks). There were also Cossacks fighting for Germany, as well as the Red Army in 1944... As you can see, there were a dozen of armies here, and it was a pretty interesting conflict.

Notes:
(1) The unmotivation of the Homeguard and the Serb equivalent called SDK (Serbian ''Volunteer'' Corps) is mostly derived from post-WW2 communist movies about the conflict - it is not entirely true, as there were good warriors in there, but there were a lot of simple people, some of whom already fought in WW1, who couldn't care less for the war, so they repeatedly surrendered to the Partisans, relinquished their weapons, returned to their homes, got conscripted again, and so supplied the partisans...
(2) All sides committed crimes, partisan crimes are likely understated, while ustaša and četnik are overstated (because the partisans won). Also, partisans inflated the number of all deaths, both in battles and in crimes, of all sides, to get more reparations from Germany... However, the četniks really did commit the worst crimes. Additionally, there are rumors that a famous ustaša general Jure Francetic (again, allegedly a war criminal) wanted to fight TOGETHER WITH THE PARTISANS against the ITALIANS and četniks, because they were slaughtering Croat civilians! Ustaša leadership knew about this but they were not in a position to demand Croatian land back. Francetic's plane misteriously crashed on his way to his new command, and so the brother-versus-brother war continued.
(3) The most tragic aspects are the fratricidal Croat ustaša vs. partisan and Serb četnik vs. partisan fights.

It is a very interesting conflict which one must explore without bias... Of course, I had family members on both the Allied and Axis side, so I am not biased

I am thinking of creating a campaign set in Yugoslavia from 1941 to 1945, I already made 1 medium-sized and 1 big scenario with real-life terrain and units. I intend to teach non-Southern Europeans a part of our rich history, and all scenarios would be playable and enjoyable from both sides. Would you guys be interested? It is a terribly understated front. Yugoslavia, by and large, experienced the most combat of all occupied countries. Actually, partisans started engaging the Axis in real, pitched battles even in 1942 - I am talking about thousands of combatants on both sides. It was a totally different scale from Allo! Allo! and similar cloak and dagger schemes.

[Panzerpimp]

Wow, nice post.

I am thinking of creating a campaign set in Yugoslavia from 1941 to 1945, I already made 1 medium-sized and 1 big scenario with real-life terrain and units

Great news, I'll play that.

Would you guys be interested?

Of course. We need more Panzer Corps. Please, continue your work.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Croatians were not independent for 900 years, since their kingdom, and so everybody welcomed the ustaše, but when they ceded the Croatian coast to Italy, people were not that happy anymore!

Was it that long? I thought Croatia still existed in the 1400s until they were conquered by the Ottomans?

- BNC

[CroCop96]

Croatians were not independent for 900 years, since their kingdom, and so everybody welcomed the ustaše, but when they ceded the Croatian coast to Italy, people were not that happy anymore!

Was it that long? I thought Croatia still existed in the 1400s until they were conquered by the Ottomans?

- BNC

EDIT: This is what happens when you ask a Croatian whether his nation was conquered by the Ottomans... an essay

One note: I double checked all numbers, some might seem extreme.

We were never fully conquered by the Ottomans! You insulted my national pride now let me explain...

We existed, but not fully independent... After our last king died in battle against the Hungarians, we signed a treaty of personal union with them. So, we kept our administration, taxes, nobles' ''parliament'', even our money mint and the position of ban (viceroy), but the overall ruler was the Hungarian king, also crowned as the king of Croatia.

Nevermind that, we defended Europe from the Turks from 1433 to 1593!
They did conquer half of our territory and islamicized it. That territory is nowadays Bosnia and Herzegovina. Before the Turks, it was a mostly Croatian region, but in 1956 the communists have invented the ''Bosniaks'' as a separate nation. Oh well, that's politics now.
Anyway, the Turks managed to penetrate our defenses couple of times and even lay siege to Vienna, but they were defeated every time.

In 1526, the last Hungarian king died and our nobles elected the Austrians to rule us (most of our historians are proud because ''we chose our own ruler'', I would have been proud if we choose one of our own nobles...)

So now we were part of a multi-national Austrian-Czech-Hungarian-Croatian-Slovak Ottoman-ass-kicking kingdom called the Habsburg Monarchy (after the ruling Austrian house), and the big boss was Austria. We still had some autonomy.

In 1566, the ''Croatian Thermopilae'' happened. 2 300 - 3 000 defenders, mostly Croatians, under the leadership of heroic duke Nikola Šubić-Zrinski (''the Croatian Leonidas''), held the fortified town of Siget (Szeget, in Hungary) for a month against more than 100 000 (low estimate, high is 300 000) Turks, armed with 300 cannons, led by none other than the famous sultan Suleyman the Magnificent! This was his sixth campaign against us, and he was intent to capture Vienna. Siget was in his way.

In short, the Turks lost 20 000 - 30 000 soldiers due to Croatian surprise cavalry attacks, while storming the walls, and because of illness. Even the great sultan perished (not in battle; naturally) while besieging the city! The Turks finally managed to set the town ablaze and the fire was so widespread that the defenders could not extinguish it. Then duke Šubić led the surviving defenders out of the town into a final charge against the Turks! Imagine the balls of that man. All but 4 defenders died. The Turks, having lost their leader to illness, retreated! Just one of the times we saved Europe (Suleyman was really intent on capturing Vienna this time!)...

Then the Turks got arrogant again, and in 1592-1593 launched another, much smaller campaign. This time, they assaulted the fortified city of Sisak. Now, Sisak was not a mere town with several keeps like Szeget, but a true city within a hexagonal fortress, so it serves as a testament to Turk military genius. Of course, it was surrounded by rivers and marshland at the time... So, 12 000 Turks layed siege against 300-800 defenders. 5-6000 Croatians, Austrians and Slovenians quickly assembled and marched towards Sisak, attacked the Turks, who then counterattacked them and crossed completely on our side of the river. Meanwhile, the brave defenders sallied forth and cut off the Turkish escape route (the only bridge in the area), and so the Turks were between our army, the fortress, and the defenders, trapped on our side of the river. After a couple of musket volleys, they started to jump in the river and try to swim to the other side. Many drowned, including their duke (pasha) and 12 other nobles (beys)... The battle was a great victory for us and it was greeted in all of christian Europe. The pope Clemens VII sent a letter of thanks to our army, while the Spanish king Felipe II decorated our viceroy and commander of our detachment, ban Erdody. The Turks were silent for a couple of decades.

Now that the Eastern border was peaceful, in 17th century, the Austrians waged war across Europe (the Thirty Years War etc.). Croatian nobles were not too happy because they wanted to return the still-occupied Croatian territories of Bosnia. And so two of our most prominent nobles (one was the great grandson of Šubić, the defender of Siget) plotted against the king and asked for help the French, Poles, Venice, and even the Turks (?!). Of course, they were executed for treason, and now Croatia was in a pretty bad position... their families held the great majority of our land, and now it was divided and given to foreign nobles (mostly Hungarian)...

In 1683, the Turks launched their final campaign against Vienna and layed siege to it, but our Polish brothers saved the city. And then, the Turks turned tail and all of us started running behind them and kicking them in the ass - Croats, Hungarians, Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians! Some of our troops got almost to Greece! We liberated most of our present day territory, as well as Bosnia. However, the French attacked Austria, and our armies fell back, and Turks reoccupied much of Serbia and Bosnia again...

After these two centuries of warfare ended, the Hungarians tried to hungarize, and Austrians tried to germanize us. From 18th century to the end of Austria-Hungary in 1918... So we had even less rights and autonomy...

Then we formed a nation with Slovenia and the Serb minority encompassing almost all of historical Croatian regions (Bosnia included, but with parts of the coast under Italy!) and called it ''the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs''. However, it had no allies, and the Italians were pretty horny on capturing half of our country, and on the other side the Serbs, also the victors of WW1, proposed a Southern-Slav state under the ideals of ''Yugoslavia'', with their king as a ruler... we preferred the lesser evil and after 2 months united with them. The country changed name into ''the State of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes'' (note the Serbs in the first place now ), and then immediately into ''Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes'', and in 1929 to Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The Serbs started a politics of terror towards our intellectuals, murdering them on the street. They mortally wounded our people's champion Stjepan Radić and killed several others in the Parliament in Belgrade in 1928. He died after a couple of months. It was then that Ante Pavelić, a lawyer and also member of the Parliament and president of the Croatian Party of Rights (a right-wing, conservative, patriotic party) went into exile and formed the later-notorious ustaše, while Josip Broz-Tito, a man of mixed Croatian-Slovenian origin, became the ''Chief Secretary'' (president) of the forbidden Yugoslav communist party and went to jail for five years. So, everybody including non-royalist Serbs, which means a great majority of the people of Yugoslavia, did not like the Serb king and his rule. The ustaše and the Macedonian ''VMRO'', a similar organisation, managed to assassinate the Serbian king in Marseille in 1934. It did not do much good for the people back home...

Only one fact is enough to see the injustice and Serb dominance in Royal Yugoslavia: At one point, out of around 150 generals, ALL BUT FOUR (4) WERE SERBS!

Then came 1941 and the German invasion, all units except those manned completely by royalist Serbs layed down their arms or just did not shoot - some were even not disarmed by the Germans when they started flying Croatian flags. Army officers and town mayors proclaimed an independent Croatia in several different cities and towns on different dates! It was a euphoria. Soon after, however, after the mild democrats under Vladko Maček (a total pussy of a man) refused to come to power, the Germans installed the right-wing ustaše... and then they started implementing racial laws and anti-communist laws. Many of our intellectuals as well as common folk were killed.
Many Serb royalist units kept resisting the occupation, and now called themselves the ''četniks''. They started pillaging villages everywhere but in Serbia. The Times magazine even applauded them for being ''the first guerrilla in occupied Europe''. However, the četniks are actually the bad guys, as they murdered innocent civilians, even their own (Serb). And so the ustaše implemented anti-Serb policies as well, both as a revenge for the terror 1918-1941 and for recent pillaging. However, it confuses me a lot because modern day Serb propaganda says that 700 000 (yes, 700 000) Serbs were murdered only by the ustaše - which is a ridiculously high number - however, I have read a lot about a couple of Serb GENERALS in the army of the Croatian ustašas, as well as watched a Croatian propaganda video from 1942 where the ''Poglavnik'' (Fuhrer) Ante Pavelić hails the establishment of the Croatian Orthodox Church (!!!) (Serbs are Orthodox Christians). I've also read and seen photographic evidence that 13 Croatian generals were Serbs, and 23 Jews (!), which is contrary to the fact that Ustaše did have several prison/labour/concentration camps and many people died. Unfortunately, poor Jews and Gypsies were killed due to German influence... as well as politically incorrect Croats and Serbs. I am ashamed of that part of our history. However, the communists took over those camps and killed many political enemies as well.

The truth is most certainly in the middle - all sides killed innocent people.


And so you had the Croatian ustaše and Homeguard on the side of Independent State of Croatia, all-national Partisans, the Slovenian Homeguard in the Slovenian annexed zone (half to Italy, half to Germany), četnik factions in coastal Croatia helped by the Italians, četniks in Bosnia, Germans, Italians...

Royal Government in London, for whom the četniks nominally fought, although they cooperated with the Germans, still tried to negotiate with the Partisan Government. However, the Allies now supported the partisans as they knew the četniks are actually the bad guys.

In 1944, after the royal prime minister signed an agreement about post-war democratic elections (which never happened and the communists took power, of course ), most četniks officially changed flags and joined the partisan forces!

As I said, I am not biased, as one of my great-grandfathers was a Partisan officer, and the other a Homeguard officer. Most of modern Croatians are either for the Partisans or the Ustaše, but I watch without bias and prejudice and see positive and negative sides of both. I am proud, however, that no one in my family was neither a communist nor an ustaša (they were ''just'' partisans or homeguardsmen, while others were too young, died in WW1, or didn't participate in WW2 at all).

The partisans were a good idea, declaratively accepting everyone, but on the top they were actually led by communists, who are as bad as the nazis, plus, the transfer of tens of thousands of ex-četniks to partisans in 1944 proved catastrophic in the long run - I am talking about the last 70 years from that day to this day.

And so the Allies won, the Partisans slaughtered 30 000 - 500 000 (yes, again, propaganda and different sources) ustašas, remaining četniks, and unfortunately many regular soldiers and civilians from Germany, Slovenia and Croatia.

So Croatia got back its old coast from Italy completely, but lost Bosnia. The ''Bosniak'' nation was invented in 1956 - beforehand, these people, of mostly ancient Croatian origin, declared either as Croats or as Yugoslavs. From 1945 to 1956, they were called ''Muslims'' with a capital M as a NATION, not a religion. And so Croats went from right-wing dictature to left-wing dictature, again gained some and lost some terrritory. Essentially, that was it. Life in Yugoslavia was generally ok from 1950's to 1980, the nations were fairly equal, when the aforementioned dictator Tito died. Of course, some still went to prison for ''nationalism'', all nationalities included.

We now come to those tens of thousands of Serb soldiers who supported the king and simply transferred to the Partisans in 1944-45. These people were secretly still supporting the idea of Greater Serbia. After Tito died, Serb nationalists got to chief positions, and Serbia slowly started to assert dominance like in the old Yugoslavia... Then the war happened in 1991, the Yugoslav People's Army attacked first Slovenia, then Croatia, then Bosnia. Most of those nationalities left the army, and so it became the Serbian army. In 1992 it removed the ''People's'' from its name. It supported the Serb rebels who occupied 25%-33% of Croatia as well as 30-50% of Bosnia. In 1995, Croatia and Bosnia launched large counteroffensives and liberated themselves.

So yes, we didn't really have our country since 1102, since the ustaša Independent State of Croatia was a nazi puppet state...

Holy shit, I've been writing this for an hour. Just wanted to share some of my interesting history with you guys yeah, I'll definitely make that WW2 Balkan Front campaign!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

EDIT: This is what happens when you ask a Croatian whether his nation was conquered by the Ottomans... an essay

One note: I double checked all numbers, some might seem extreme.

We were never fully conquered by the Ottomans! You insulted my national pride now let me explain...
...
...
...
...
Holy shit, I've been writing this for an hour. Just wanted to share some of my interesting history with you guys yeah, I'll definitely make that WW2 Balkan Front campaign!

I didn't expect to open the internet and find a Wikipedia style entry that takes 15 minutes to read . Quite interesting though.

- BNC

[CroCop96]

Yeah, well, history was always my favorite subject in high school, plus I never had problems writing essays, and so I didn't even notice how long it took writing this

Thank you, I'm glad that you find it interesting!

[verstaubtgesicht]

Disclaimer: this is a strictly historical post with checked facts.

Serbs invented the term ''Yugoslavia'' (the land of the Southern Slavs) in 19th century to justify bringing all the Southern Slavs in one nation
...
However, the četniks really did commit the worst crimes.

Not exactly a relevant post for this forum, especially due to its length (I don't think people care about the political aspects here as much as about the military/combat aspect). However, just for accuracy's sake, there are two factually incorrect statements above:

1) the whole idea about "yugoslavia" was born by mostly Croatian intellectuals around the Iliric Movement in the 19th century (like Ljudevit Gaj and bishop Strossmayer).
2) Although it is true that crimes have been committed by all sides, and you are right that partisan (communist) crimes have been played down in the past, there is no dispute that by far the worst crimes have been committed by Croatian Nazis (Ustashe), who established concentration death camps (the largest being in Jasenovac) where innocent civilians were systematically slaughtered just like in Auschwitz mostly based on their ethnic background (Serbs, Jews, Gypsies), and also a much smaller number of Croatian Communists. The systematic nature and the state sponsorship and the sheer numbers (even with disputes over the exact number it's in low to high hundreds of thousands) Ustashe crimes were by far the worst.

[edahl1980]

Of course they could make a mod with just the take over of Austria and I would probably buy it.

That will be a boring campaign as there was no combat.

[CroCop96]

Disclaimer: this is a strictly historical post with checked facts.

Serbs invented the term ''Yugoslavia'' (the land of the Southern Slavs) in 19th century to justify bringing all the Southern Slavs in one nation
...
However, the četniks really did commit the worst crimes.

Not exactly a relevant post for this forum, especially due to its length (I don't think people care about the political aspects here as much as about the military/combat aspect). However, just for accuracy's sake, there are two factually incorrect statements above:

1) the whole idea about "yugoslavia" was born by mostly Croatian intellectuals around the Iliric Movement in the 19th century (like Ljudevit Gaj and bishop Strossmayer).
2) Although it is true that crimes have been committed by all sides, and you are right that partisan (communist) crimes have been played down in the past, there is no dispute that by far the worst crimes have been committed by Croatian Nazis (Ustashe), who established concentration death camps (the largest being in Jasenovac) where innocent civilians were systematically slaughtered just like in Auschwitz mostly based on their ethnic background (Serbs, Jews, Gypsies), and also a much smaller number of Croatian Communists. The systematic nature and the state sponsorship and the sheer numbers (even with disputes over the exact number it's in low to high hundreds of thousands) Ustashe crimes were by far the worst.

Yes, I got carried away... but it's always interesting to learn some history, and I think that all of us here are history enthusiasts

1) I applaud you for your knowledge. Actually, yes and no. Allow me to explain. As Croatia was in Austria and our national tendencies were ''suppressed'', some Croatian writers and poets actually started thinking about a pan-Southern-Slavic state as early as 16th century!
Yes, Ljudevit Gaj and bishop Strossmayer were also for the idea of a unified, equal, brotherly Southern Slav state as Southern Slavs would certainly get on better among themselves than as subjects under Austria or the Ottomans...

HOWEVER, at the same time, in 1844, the Serbian Prime Minister Ilija Garašanin sketched the ''Načertanije'', the plan for Greater Serbia. As I said, in Serb politics, the idea of Yugoslavia WAS a cover up for a Greater Serbia!
Here is an excerpt from the Croatian Wikipedia...

''U Kneževini Srbiji južnoslavenska ideja imala je ponajprije funkciju opravdanja politike širenja Srbije. U Garašaninovu Načertaniju (1844.), tajnom programu srpske vanjske politike, najviši je cilj »ujedinjenje svih Srba u jednu državu«,''
''In the Duchy of Serbia. the Southern Slavic idea had, PRIMARILY, a function of justifying the politics of Serbian expansion. In Garašanin's ''Načertanije'' (1844), a secret program of Serbian foreign politics, the highest goal is ''to unite all the Serbs in one state''...

We learn about that even in primary school. You get it? Our idea was pretty different from their idea...

2) I see you are well-versed in Balkans history. While some right-wing historians claim that Jasenovac was merely a ''work camp'' (''highly unlikely'' is an understatement), and I dno not dispute that people were definitely systematically killed there based on their nationality or political affiliation, but I say that ALL figures for crimes of all sides are pretty inflated. Yugoslavia had 13 million inhabitants in 1931 total. In the next census, 1948, there were nearly 16 million. Ustašas say that Partisans killed HALF A MILLION in 1945, post WW2. Četniks say that Ustašas killed 700 000 in Jasenovac alone. Partisans say that Ustašas and Četniks slaughtered practically every village from Austria to Greece... I mean...
So, in 17 years, despite WW2, there was still an increase of 3 million people. It's all very complicated and it's hard to find the real truth. Ustaša probably killed 50 - 200 000, Partisans 50 - 200 000, Četniks just wandered the countryside and raped, plundered, and slaughtered. They did not have a state of their own - Croats had their state, while Partisans organised government on ''liberated'' territories from 1942 on. However, the četniks were the supporters of the Serbian king, and Serbian monarchy murdered and tortured from 1918 to 1941.


Oh, yes, there is one more thing:
„Kroz naše zatvore je prošlo između 1945. i 1951. 3,777,776 zatvorenika, dok smo likvidirali 586,000 narodnih neprijatelja.”
(Aleksandar Ranković, iz izvještaja u beogradskoj skupštini, Politika, Beograd, 1.veljače 1951., str.1)
''Between 1945 and 51, 3 777 776 prisoners ''went through'' our prisons, while we liquidated 586 000 enemies of the people.''
Aleksandar Ranković (communist minister of internal affairs and chief of secret police; from a report to the communist parliament, magazine Politika, Beograd, February 1st 1951, page 1)

They're all the same.

[funat]

Oh, yes, there is one more thing:
„Kroz naše zatvore je prošlo između 1945. i 1951. 3,777,776 zatvorenika, dok smo likvidirali 586,000 narodnih neprijatelja.”
(Aleksandar Ranković, iz izvještaja u beogradskoj skupštini, Politika, Beograd, 1.veljače 1951., str.1)
''Between 1945 and 51, 3 777 776 prisoners ''went through'' our prisons, while we liquidated 586 000 enemies of the people.''
Aleksandar Ranković (communist minister of internal affairs and chief of secret police; from a report to the communist parliament, magazine Politika, Beograd, February 1st 1951, page 1)

They're all the same.

This is proven to be a falsification by right wing neo-fascists. The given issue of Politika talks about Korean war and Rankovic has no mention there. Also the population of Yugoslavia was 13M after the war and those figures are literally impossible. Partisan killings mount to around 50.000 mostly fascist soldiers that didn't take almost a single partisan prisoner during 5 years war - so it was mostly revenge, but also a way to prevent the Greek/Korean scenario where Western powers mobilized former collaboration units to fight mostly communist guerrillas. Tito simply decided to kill them all to prevent the civil war. We can see that he mostly succeed (although a lot of innocent people died because they lacked papers to prove they were not fascist volunteers and they had the wrong uniform or boots just because they took it from somewhere).

Also Yugoslavia is "invented" by bishop Strossmayer in 1866. (check wikipedia - Croatian Academy of Science) - a Croatian Catholic intellectual, and Nacertanje has no connection with it. Every nation has some lunatics dreaming on Greater NameTheNation and it has nothing to do with the Yugoslav idea (which was about unification against German/Italian/Hungarian pretensions).

Another thing - Bosnian nation existed in parallel with Croatian (wiki - Banate of Bosnia) so claiming that it's all Croats there makes you the "Greater Croatia" proponent. They had their own nobility and religion. Later it's religion was consumed by Catholics and Orthodox (to lesser degree) and it's population split among Croatian and Serbian (and some converted to Muslim after Turks took it) - although no nations existed as in today. Tito merely recognized Muslims as a separate nation because Catholics and Orthodox identified as Croats and Serbs so Muslims were divided between each other. Also Tito tried to prevent SERBIAN pretensions to Bosnia as Serbs amounted to 33% and Croats to 17%, the rest being Muslims claimed by BOTH (wiki - the Dagger 1999 film)

Disclaimer:
I am a Croat borne and raised in Zagreb.

The forum doesn't allow me to post links so I had to post wiki references as descriptions. Feel free to check.

[CroCop96]

Oh, yes, there is one more thing:
„Kroz naše zatvore je prošlo između 1945. i 1951. 3,777,776 zatvorenika, dok smo likvidirali 586,000 narodnih neprijatelja.”
(Aleksandar Ranković, iz izvještaja u beogradskoj skupštini, Politika, Beograd, 1.veljače 1951., str.1)
''Between 1945 and 51, 3 777 776 prisoners ''went through'' our prisons, while we liquidated 586 000 enemies of the people.''
Aleksandar Ranković (communist minister of internal affairs and chief of secret police; from a report to the communist parliament, magazine Politika, Beograd, February 1st 1951, page 1)

They're all the same.

This is proven to be a falsification by right wing neo-fascists. The given issue of Politika talks about Korean war and Rankovic has no mention there.

F... Wikipedia. I didn't know that... but I also read about it elsewhere. Guess it spreads

Also Yugoslavia is "invented" by bishop Strossmayer in 1866. (check wikipedia - Croatian Academy of Science) - a Croatian Catholic intellectual, and Nacertanje has no connection with it. Every nation has some lunatics dreaming on Greater NameTheNation and it has nothing to do with the Yugoslav idea (which was about unification against German/Italian/Hungarian pretensions).

The Yugoslav idea did come to being at several differrent places at various times, by completely different interest groups, I said that. The point is that they used our good intentions for their shrewd gains. While our intellectuals saw a southern Slavic union as means of escaping the Austro-Hungarian terror regarding our nationality, Serb government envisaged it as a camouflage for their project of Greater Serbia... and so their lobby influenced our politicians around the world (Jugoslavenski klub/odbor u Londonu, WW1...)

This lunatic, Garašanin, was their prime minister and it was their official policy, brate...
Besides, some writers from 16th/17th century also had pan-slavic ideas... Križanić, for example

To elevate it to an even higher level... the Russian Empire had a pre-WW1 plan for division of Austria-Hungary and expansion of their influence. So, Serb expansionism might have been designed in Sankt Petersburg and has been a mere tool in the hands of Russian politics...

Another thing - Bosnian nation existed in parallel with Croatian (wiki - Banate of Bosnia)

Later it's religion was consumed by Catholics and Orthodox (to lesser degree) and it's population split among Croatian and Serbian (and some converted to Muslim after Turks took it) - although no nations existed as in today.

It was a preservation of Croatian statehood while the rest was under Hungary...
500 years before it, on that territory there existed only 2 main Croatian duchies - Panonska/Posavska and Dalmatinska/Primorska, and several smaller counties. All of these people were Croatians, and they possessed about 95% of Bosnia... google ''Panonska Hrvatska'' on Wiki, for example.

But Bosnia was part of Croatia as soon as Croats came... where and when did Bosnians come from then?!

Look at the map of (all) Croatia(s) during Knez Trpimir (845-864), Bijela, Crvena and Panonska, also on Wiki... Bosnia was Croatian and those people were Croats.

These people were Bosnians as a regional affiliation, but Bosnia was a Croatian region like Dalmatia or Slavonia, not an different nation.

Dalmatians and Slavonians did not call themselves Croats as well, but they were Croats and they are Croats today, aren't they?

Plus, when ''later''? 200-300 years before the Bogumil heresy, they were all Croats and Catholics. Or Croats and Slavic-gods-worshippers, our conversion to Christianity did happen back then.

Also, I forgot - there were no Catholics and Orthodox Christians before the 1054 Great Schism...


One of their most prominent nobles was Hrvoje Vukčić H(o)rvatin(č)ić... besides his obvious Croatian name (Hrvoje is a VERY Croatian name, and his surname is Hrvatinić, and Croatian word for a Croat is ''Hrvat''...), he ''was a Ban of Croatia, Grand Duke of Bosnia and Duke of Split.''. To people who don't know anything about the Middle Ages, the titles and customs, this sounds as if he was a grand conqueror of three distinct countries. Yet all of those titles are actually just regions of Croatia. Am I right?

As to unique ''bogumil'' religion, it was a (semi-)heretical teaching originating in Macedonia and spreading over several countries, just like Catharism in Languedoc, but those people were still French, weren't they? They weren't Mongols, for Heaven's sake. Besides, it doesn't have connection to the Bosnians' nationality...

Now is my turn to tell you that your information is a modern falsification by non-Croatian circles...

Another thing - Bosnian nation existed in parallel with Croatian (wiki - Banate of Bosnia) so claiming that it's all Croats there makes you the "Greater Croatia" proponent. They had their own nobility and religion. Later it's religion was consumed by Catholics and Orthodox (to lesser degree) and it's population split among Croatian and Serbian (and some converted to Muslim after Turks took it) - although no nations existed as in today. Tito merely recognized Muslims as a separate nation because Catholics and Orthodox identified as Croats and Serbs so Muslims were divided between each other. Also Tito tried to prevent SERBIAN pretensions to Bosnia as Serbs amounted to 33% and Croats to 17%, the rest being Muslims claimed by BOTH (wiki - the Dagger 1999 film)

You are referring to a Serbian film, adapted from a book by a Serbian nationalist writer and deputy prime minister, whose main plot is that the protagonist, being a Bosnian Muslim, is actually a Serb because his ancestors were Serbs before conversion to Islam... obvious Serbian propaganda. Yes, it did happen, but most of the Serbs in Bosnia were given land there by benevolent Croatian rulers like King Tomislav, when Serbs were almost annihilated by the Bulgarians, or later when many Serbs fled in front of the Ottoman invasion, and we gave them permission to settle in our lands. Yes, there were Serbs in Bosnia, but it was definitely not their land, by right of arms, by right of first settlement, by any right.

Furthermore, Tito did not need to try to prevent anything, he was the dictatorial president for life and supreme commander and whatnot...

To finish, did you know that Orthodox people were given much better treatment under the Ottomans than our Catholics? So, some people even converted to Orthodoxy rather than being Ottomanised... probably because we were less obedient than Serbs? I don't know. The Turks did conquer the whole of Serbia and held it for 500 years, but they were not that strict there. There's the connection between religion and nationality. Much like the Vlasi in the Military Region (Vojna Krajina) were assimilated into the Serbs because they were Orthodox, but they were actually a nomad people from Bulgaria...

[verstaubtgesicht]

CroCop 96, why don't you stop wasting your time on political discussions and lengthy diatribes. You mentioned that you'd like to create a mod. That would be much more productive, so that we can play it.