Improvements to recon units

[Stephen1024]

I was thinking maybe recon units if caught in combat get an escape roll if lucky they escape with only half damage? This might help make recon more usable late war, especially if add in medal idea to http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=72004?

What do people think?

[KeldorKatarn]

Not sure about this. I suggested giving them the camo trait at one point and tested this. But after watching other more experienced players play, I found that the main problem is not using them correctly and not keeping them hidden properly. At this point I'm not convinced anymore that they really need to be changed. Also I'm very hesitant about making recons more powerful at the moment as I consider most of the allied recons to be completely overpowered right now. I'm not sure what's up with them, but it might be too high GD values. Giving them even more chances to avoid damage would make them broken in my opinion.

[Stephen1024]

Yes I agree that allied recon got way to much luck or something.

German recon needs something maybe 1 in 6 chance of escaping with half damage might make German units bit more attractive if works then maybe use this instead for allied if we can find the problem there. I really do hope allied recon gets sorted, they annoy when attacked with tank and recon does more damage.

[Panzerpimp]

Maybe give them a random chance to evade an attack - like submarines.
I found recons useless in late campaigns - they take too much damage from everything - infantry, tanks, air.
And you can't hide them as the AI goes for them specifically. In Grand Campaign I lost 56 Core units, at least half of them were recons.

[ptje63]

German usefull until half 1943 for me. After that it doesnt matter if you have a 0 or 5 star recon.

[captainjack]

Recon with a spotting hero can remain useful longer, if you use reform units.
By end 1942, they are more useful for finding mines using the step by step move then for scouting.

But then I appear to get millions of spotting heroes on other units which means I can usually manage without actual recon.

[Stephen1024]

Captainjack I know what you mean about spotting hero.

Before I lost all my saves had always got huge numbers spotting hero. I have to admit this time through I not had 1 spotting hero, so far I am in Dunkirk 1940 GC.

This play through had lots initiative hero, movement, attack, defence and 1 range. Range is on 88cm AA. Best infantry is +2 defence + 3 initiative +3 movement, just got second hero in Arras, yes he from Lodz free unit. That infantry is 1 of 3 para iron cross first class with 325 experience and 653 kills 107 losses. As of yet not got a spotting, I would of liked 1 spotting. Most my heroes +1 only I don't keep reloading. This play through I have been building up infantry, Anti-Tank and my 88cm. My arty got lot +1 movements and attacks, no range heroes shame. My core total 36 units all high experience so think I take the east campaign.

I only playing on general, the challenge is to DV all and places like Lodz I destroyed army group top left of map hence high amount kills, in Dunkirk I will destroy whole army there. Only map I not done it for Kampinsoka as Lodz group is destroyable but at way to high cost +20 strength units just to easy for them kill and do serious damage. Kampinsoka high cost map as is and to make it take able you need enter cross water and you need over strength and lot arty.

[edahl1980]

Recon is not a tank.
If a SDKFZ-234 was caugh by a T-34 it got ugly. You have to prevent that from happening. If you put recon in the frontline they are bound to get smashed sooner or later by enemy attacks.

[Stephen1024]

Thanks tigerIII I almost choked on my tea reading that.

Very true point, just be nice if late war recon had bit of escape chance.

[captainjack]

I've probably mentioned before that if you could eliminate the 1 hex penalty for stopping and maybe add in "immune to ambush" trait then recon would be more useful as it could look ahead AND have a chance to get back to safety if it found something it didn't like.

[simcc]

Everyone knows that recon duty is a death trap in WW2 most recon just found something they don't like and die its like they came they saw and they died hahahaha. It's fine in PzC you just need to remember they are not tanks and they must move move forward full speed always leave move to retreat

[edahl1980]

I think alot of this boils down to players using recon the wrong way. Or thats what it looks like to me reading posts.
How to use recon is to move it up as far as spotting allows, and keep doing so untill you run out of points. Time it, plan it and make sure tanks can always move up 1 hex after recon is done moving. If you spot some heavy shit like 3 KV-1C, then move back and move your StuGIII/Pz IVG up infront of your recon so it can hide behind them. Make a screen for your army coming up behind. This works pretty damn good for me in the entire dlc.

The whole purpose of recon is to recon, not just drive off into enemy territory without scouting for enemy activity. If your recon is caugh in an ambush you dont know how to use it.

[TSPC37730]

I think part of the perceived problem with recon stems with how the game unfolds. In the '39 & '40 scenarios when your army is blowing through everything & running over weak & 5 strength units, many players use recon units as a "tank like" unit. And it works. But, the unit is still not a tank. As the game progresses, the enemy tanks get incrementally stronger & stronger. Your recon unit does not - heroes, stars & overstrength aside. By the time you get to '43 the difference is huge. Combine this with the AI's preference for attacking them & it results in a serious danger of your recon units becoming extinct. In the late years, the only redeeming qualities for your recon unit are its low cost & its spotting ability. The latter can be overcome with careful play & units with spotting heroes.

The bottom line is that the game changes as the years go by. Recon may be great in the early years. AA - IMO - becomes essential towards the end. That's the way it is.

[shawkhan2]

Recon in the game is simply too slow. Bump the speed up by two or three or extend spottiing range to simulate its extreme mobility.
As it is, I do not use it after 1940, as other units with spotting heroes are much more survivable and serve the same function as recon.

[KeldorKatarn]

I think alot of this boils down to players using recon the wrong way. Or thats what it looks like to me reading posts.
How to use recon is to move it up as far as spotting allows, and keep doing so untill you run out of points. Time it, plan it and make sure tanks can always move up 1 hex after recon is done moving. If you spot some heavy shit like 3 KV-1C, then move back and move your StuGIII/Pz IVG up infront of your recon so it can hide behind them. Make a screen for your army coming up behind. This works pretty damn good for me in the entire dlc.

The whole purpose of recon is to recon, not just drive off into enemy territory without scouting for enemy activity. If your recon is caugh in an ambush you dont know how to use it.

I couldn't agree more. I've played up to 1943 in the DLC and I've never lost a recon (except once I think by making a stupid mistake in Sevastopol and leaving it vulnerable in a city hex). I lost some before but always it was me being cocky or stupid. If you use them right, make sure you know how much move points they have left, you're perfectly fine. I critisized their usefulness before too, but after watching other people play who work more with the spotting and view ranges I learned a lot about what I was doing wrong. The recons are fine. They're just not easy to use right.

[Stephen1024]

Maybe we all should build tactics threat with all the info in one place?

[edahl1980]

I think alot of this boils down to players using recon the wrong way. Or thats what it looks like to me reading posts.
How to use recon is to move it up as far as spotting allows, and keep doing so untill you run out of points. Time it, plan it and make sure tanks can always move up 1 hex after recon is done moving. If you spot some heavy shit like 3 KV-1C, then move back and move your StuGIII/Pz IVG up infront of your recon so it can hide behind them. Make a screen for your army coming up behind. This works pretty damn good for me in the entire dlc.

The whole purpose of recon is to recon, not just drive off into enemy territory without scouting for enemy activity. If your recon is caugh in an ambush you dont know how to use it.

I couldn't agree more. I've played up to 1943 in the DLC and I've never lost a recon (except once I think by making a stupid mistake in Sevastopol and leaving it vulnerable in a city hex). I lost some before but always it was me being cocky or stupid. If you use them right, make sure you know how much move points they have left, you're perfectly fine. I critisized their usefulness before too, but after watching other people play who work more with the spotting and view ranges I learned a lot about what I was doing wrong. The recons are fine. They're just not easy to use right.

Making it simple. A recons job is to allow tanks to use their maximum of movement without being caught in an ambush.
In addition they can capture hexes and then move on. And their pretty good at killing infantry.

[Stephen1024]

Yes I too only use recon in 2/3rds movement. In major combat line I often use recon to hit enemy thats on 1 or 2 points then retreat it. For grabbing empty hex saving infantry and tanks for combat. For mopping up work.

88cm another unit that got be learned to. Trick with 88 is use it as ambush weapon, also learn how build tank traps draw enemy tanks in.

Strategic bombers are under used when someone is new. Mostly they appear only good against ships, but there great taking ammo and setting up surrenders.
I got strategic bomber currently in 41 GC that got +2 attack with over strength of 2-3 points it will take 8-10 points on ships, against KV1 it knocks of 2 points reduces ammo. Mind you in Sea lion GC my strategic bombers got +1 initiative, not so useful.

Arty I fell for bigger is better when new. I learned that couple 10.5 and 1 17 are best. Rate of fire does make big difference. StugIIIB are so useful, enemy likes them as targets, there hard crack and do lot of suppression for me. Later SU-122 are great as arty/AT.

Anti-Tank are hard one get use to, the Paks are good for defensive maps. mobile AT is good for ambushes and mopping up. Would like see AT defensive fire as support.

Tac like the Me 110 are misunderstood by those new to the game. There ground attack about half as damaging as a stuka, there about half as damaging as fighter on fighters. I like Me 110 as I learned to use for most maps 39-41 1 fighter and 1 tac Me 110 gain air superiority, there few maps like Narvik where I use 2 fighters, but thats gain quick kills against spitfires, hurricane, and strat bombers. Gaining air superiority fast in some can half time takes to complete map.

Point is Me 110 can be used to help ground war more then fighter, so using Me 110 as mopping up fighter then ground attack is much more efficient.

Any points I missed on use of units that those new to game miss.

[captainjack]

Good point about the 110. It's not particularly good as a fighter or for ground attack, but the fact it can do both makes it useful.
The other plus point is that stukas are very vulnerable alone but a 110 can often survive without an escort (as long as it doesn't meet three spitfires at once like my SE110 did in AK).

[Stephen1024]

Have to agree upto the end of 41 only air force I get nervous about is the English especially spitfires. If a spitfire gets lucky roll its bye bye even fighter if there another fighter around.

Even late war the tac ground/fighters are useful, cuts the number fighter I use by half. Late war normally have chosen to upgraded all but 1 stuka to fighter/ground aircraft.

Good point about fighter/ground aircraft don't need escorts.