Siciliots, Right, let's cover those flanks !!

[spring]

Hi all,

Even though Classical Greeks are one of my favorites armies, i very often find myself
wondering before a game starts, whether i should play as aggresively as i would like,
as i often end with one or both flanks turned by faster or more mobile enemy troops...

Apart from not being the greatest general on earth, i tried to find a solution to this and
yesterday played with a new solution to my Greeks flank problems : Siciliots !!

1* IC
3*TC Ally

3*6 LF, Unprot,Poor, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*8 MF, Prot, Av, Undr, Ls, Sw
1*8 MF, Prot, Av, Dr, Off Spear
3*4 LH, Unprot, Av, Undr, Jav, Ls
8*8 HF, Prot, Poor, Undr, Off Spear
3*6 HF, Prot, Poor, Undr, Off Spear


797pts, 19 Units, Init +3

Right, now i've got my flanks covered!! Side by side the HF and the MF cover 212cm, that should do!!
Of course i'm probably going to be owned frontally instead of on the flanks but, at least my Spears are
finally going to fight with something in front of them.
And, hey, didn't anyone say in this group that all the lists have a chance to get some results as the budget
has been carefully balanced?!? Well it's time to check this
And with the amount of hoplites i already have i just need to borrow from my club few more stands to reach the
pleasant number of 82 Hoplite stands !!
Ok, on paper it looks hopeless, but it might still be fun to check what rear support plus IC for a good part of
the army would bring to all those poor troops.

Time to bring this to the club and have a Hoplites swarm session ^^.

[fredrik]

Now all you have to worry about is off-table flank marches coming on and forcing everyone within 6" of the side edge to evade...

[spring]

ah well, sure, but off-table flank marches would be a problem with any Classical Greeks version i would
field, so... Siciliots cover a longer front that's mainly what i ask them Standing few turns against
stronger foot units (any foot would do that? ) would be a plus too

[dave_r]

I suspect Knight Armies may be a bit of a problem - with that amount of poor troops you are going to struggle if you lose.

Given the list you have chosen (i.e. Siciliot) I don't think there are any Siciliot specific options in there - why not go with Aitolian and get more Javelinmen? You are likely to really struggle with lots of difficult going as that will stuff your spear line. If you want to go Siciliot - why not go Armoured Poor rather than Protected Poor?

Of course, you are now likely to meet a more "normal" Classical Greek and get absolutely whumped by it....

[spring]

Yup any other Classical Greeks would probably give me a hard time, and i suppose any other stronger foot
would give me a hard time too...

Armoured might be an option, i'll check that and see how many units i can get, prot was first
chosen because of the frontage covered, initial idea was too have a larger front to aviod being
attacked every time on my flanks, but poor armoured might cover enough space to do that too.

I doubt that Knights are ever going to be a problem as i'm not intending to play open comp with
this kind of army . But as you said, i'll probably have to worry about any serious foot i might
face anyway ... but if i wanted to avoid worrying with an army i wouldn't pick this, just curious
to test how poor in big numbers behave.

[IanB3406]

but if i wanted to avoid worrying with an army i wouldn't pick this, just curious
to test how poor in big numbers behave.

----------------------------------------------
My thinking is Poor foot that are down one POA are absolute garbage, and will be nothing more than a speed bump. I think youu have to go armored here so that you aren't down a POA against most opponents.

Being down a POA means rerolling about half your hits!, while at even's you are only re-rolling a third of them.....

And also think about hte shooting - You want to avoid too many cohesion tests being poor, and armored should help avoid some from shooting.

[spring]

Ok here's a Thessalian version more and better LF and less but heavier HF... :

1*IC
3*TC ally

4*6 LF, Unprot, Av, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*6 LF, Unprot, Poor, Undr, Jav, Ls
3*4 Lh, Unprot, Av, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*8 MF, Prot, Av, Undr, Ls, Sw
6*8 HF, Arm, Poor,Undr, Off Spear
2*6 HF, Prot, Poor, Undr, Off Spear

Hum, less frontage(unless i count the LF, Av as a viable difficult terrain frontage), less rear supports, still, 17units and init +3, and "better" coverage of difficult terrain, if i
ever win the init. Of course i could even go with a mix of poor and av Off spear, but i want to test the all poor
units concept.

[SirGarnet]

I think if you wanted to test Poor troops then focusing on offensive spears is a good choice. Off Spear is a good all around troop type with useful POA and POA neutralization, and the tactical scheme is fairly straightforward. I'd be interested to hear if the fact they are undrilled proves more annoying than the fact that they are Poor.

One thing I'm not clear on is your ally TC concept. I'd take an IC with poor troops like this, but having lots of ally TCs seems a handicap and devalues the IC.

[spring]

Having Undrilled troops was also a reason to go with a larger front, and with this amount of troops
it might turn to be less annoying than being poor, but i still need to make a reality check as i've
not yet played this army with my buddies.

You could be right with the Ally TCs, i might go for one standard TC and 2 Ally TCs and take out
the Poor Lf. Really need to play my buddies now, to truely see how poor troops behave.

[spike]

Ok here's a Thessalian version more and better LF and less but heavier HF... :

1*IC
3*TC ally

4*6 LF, Unprot, Av, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*6 LF, Unprot, Poor, Undr, Jav, Ls
3*4 Lh, Unprot, Av, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*8 MF, Prot, Av, Undr, Ls, Sw
6*8 HF, Arm, Poor,Undr, Off Spear
2*6 HF, Prot, Poor, Undr, Off Spear

Hum, less frontage(unless i count the LF, Av as a viable difficult terrain frontage), less rear supports, still, 17units and init +3, and "better" coverage of difficult terrain, if i
ever win the init. Of course i could even go with a mix of poor and av Off spear, but i want to test the all poor
units concept.

Sorry
No poor Thessalian Hoplites (they have to be Average), only Asiatic, Italiot, or Siciliot can be poor

Spike

[spring]

Oops, true, and yet, i had the Immortal Fire in front of me when i wrote the list...

Need to improve my reading skill a bit.

Well that makes quite a difference then, in order to have +3 init i would need
enough Lh that i'm only going to find in non-Thessalian list FROM 450, which means either,
no +3 just +2 and armoured poor Off Spear or +3 init but no armoured poor Off spear
just Protected poor...

Or i just give up on the idea of winning any initiative roll, keep armoured poor without
any usefull Lf no Cv and hope to have enough troop with my 1 MF to occupy the bad terrain one
might put against me to break my line....

[spring]

Back to siciliot then...

1*IC
2*TC
1*TC ally

3*6 Lf, Poor, Undr, Jav, Ls
1*8 Mf, Av, Undr, Ls, Sw
8*8 Hf, Poor, Undr, Off Spear
3*6 Hf, Prot, Undr Off Spear

15 units, Init +2, hum front covered HF armoured plus MF : 144cm^^,
not SUCH large front after all... I'll try out of curiosity but don't find
that the poor rating brings so many additional troops after all ... we'll see