Mutually obstructed charges, an example

[hammy]

In a game yesterday we got this situation.



The elephants want to charge the knights but in order to do so they will have to charge the spears. It is just possible with stepping forwards for the elephants to make contact with the knights thus:



This charge would however mean that the cavalry can't all charge the spears



If the cavalry charge the spear then the elephants charge the elephants can drop back a file and still hit the knights:



Now if the knights had been slightly further back or the angles different then the elephants would not have been able to charge the spears and the knights as it would not be possible to contact both but if the cavalry were already fighting the spears then the elephants could have dropped a file to avoid friends and slotted down the gap to the knights.

When we thought it through I figured that as the elephants could charge the knights AND the spears to start with that after the cavalry charge they could drop back a file and hit just the knights (it was not quite possible to hit both knghts and spear once the cavalry were in because of the angles and size of the gap.

Does that all sound right?

[Bugle999]

only a novice but my take....
is there something about having to hit the same number of enemy bases if you wheel in a charge?
In the example solution given the Elephants WOULD HAVE hit two bases had they not wheeled BUT once having done so (and dropped back a base they only hit one base - therefore they can't...?
Interested to hear the authors answers to this one!

[hammy]

only a novice but my take....
is there something about having to hit the same number of enemy bases if you wheel in a charge?
In the example solution given the Elephants WOULD HAVE hit two bases had they not wheeled BUT once having done so (and dropped back a base they only hit one base - therefore they can't...?
Interested to hear the authors answers to this one!

Interesting point, Once the cavalry charged in there was no possible way for the elephants to get two bases into contact. The direction of the elephants charge was such that had they not had to drop back a base to fit they would have hit with two bases.

I too will be interested to see what the team think.

[ars_belli]

According to page 54 of the rule book, the only formation change that can be made during a charge is a one-base contraction if necessary to pass friendly troops. So if the cavalry first charge the opposing spears, then the friendly elephants should be able to contract in order to pass by the cavalry and charge the enemy knights. The friendly cavalry would be also disordered for being less than one base width from the elephants.

At least, that's my take on the situation.

Cheers,
Scott

[hammy]

According to page 54 of the rule book, the only foirmation change that can be made during a charge is a one-base contraction if necessary to pass friendly troops. So if the cavalry first charge the opposing spears, then the friendly elephants should be able to contract in order to pass by the cavalry and charge the enemy knights. The friendly cavalry would be also disordered for being less than one base width from the elephants.

At least, that's my take on the situation.

Cheers,
Scott

I tend to agree and in this case as the elephants could declare on the knights before the cavalry charged (steping forwards would have brought them into contact with the knights) that would be fine BUT, if the knights had been say 5mm further back then the elephants would not have been able to declare a charge on them although once the cavalry hit the spears the elephants could have (by dropping back a base) still reached the knights, hence this question.

I am pretty sure we got it right in this game but what if the elephants had been a 2 base BG of knights or cavalry, could they have dropped back a base, not charged the spear and charged a target they couldn't actually declare a charge on at the start of the impact phase?

[ars_belli]

According to paragraph two in the Declaration of Charges section on p. 52, I would say not.

Chers,
Scott

[GrumblingGrognard]

I would think not as the charge was actually declared against the spears. The knights were hit by stepping forward only. If they can't contact the unit they declared their charge upon when the time comes their entire charge is cancelled (I would think).

GG

[hammy]

I would think not as the charge was actually declared against the spears. The knights were hit by stepping forward only. If they can't contact the unit they declared their charge upon when the time comes their entire charge is cancelled (I would think).

GG

I am fairly sure ( I will now have to check) that BG's you will step forwards into count as being targets of the charge.

[lawrenceg]

I tend to agree and in this case as the elephants could declare on the knights before the cavalry charged (steping forwards would have brought them into contact with the knights) that would be fine BUT, if the knights had been say 5mm further back then the elephants would not have been able to declare a charge on them although once the cavalry hit the spears the elephants could have (by dropping back a base) still reached the knights, hence this question.

I am pretty sure we got it right in this game but what if the elephants had been a 2 base BG of knights or cavalry, could they have dropped back a base, not charged the spear and charged a target they couldn't actually declare a charge on at the start of the impact phase?

I have checked and you did it right. A target counts as charged even if it could only be contacted by a step forward.

If the knights would not have been contacted by a step forward, I think you probably could still contact them if they were in the path of the original charge that would have contacted the spears, that path being projected forward once you drop a base behind. However, I'm only about 60% sure. The whole business of charge declarations and interference between charges is rather ill-defined at the moment, as you can see from the "Declaration of Charges" thread. The authors did come up with a couple of (as yet unofficial) principles in that thread, but they may see fit to modify or add to them in the light of further specific examples such as this one.

[sagji]

I would think not as the charge was actually declared against the spears. The knights were hit by stepping forward only. If they can't contact the unit they declared their charge upon when the time comes their entire charge is cancelled (I would think).

GG

Except charges aren't declared against a target they are just declared - thus at the end of the charge declaration segment all you know is that the elephants and the cavalry are charging. The target of the elephants charge is only determined when it moves, at which pooint it has to drop back a base to hit anything but has a free choice to hit either the spears or the knights.

[SirGarnet]

Except charges aren't declared against a target they are just declared - thus at the end of the charge declaration segment all you know is that the elephants and the cavalry are charging. The target of the elephants charge is only determined when it moves, at which pooint it has to drop back a base to hit anything but has a free choice to hit either the spears or the knights.

Admittedly the mechanics of charging turn out to be a lot less clear than at first I imagined them, but the charge path does need to be defined before movement where it affects the steps following after charge declaration such as CMTs, fragmented cohesion tests, interceptions (see FAQ), and evades. It would be simpler if the charge path always was defined at charge declaration (laying down charge direction markers is what we've done), but that's not what the rules require.

Check the Declaration of Charges thread discussion -

viewtopic.php?t=7273&start=60

All that said, common sense rather than rules interpretation suggests they can declare a charge which has both targets in its path and that the nature of the charge changes when one target is blocked.

[shall]

There is an FAQ that basically says that "Of course you will need to declarte a path if interceptions are possible etc. (sorry we should have said)" or words to that effect. Take a look there on the site.

I have had the above sort of thing several times in games. FWIW this is how we played it out - so this is not an official ruling as such (wait for one of those):

1. You declare both charges and with them a path if there is a hint of an intercept or an evade. We always declare who a BG is charging however.
2. In the above there is no interception or evade so no need for a path at that stage.
3. The charges targets do matter and the Ellies are at both the Spear and the Knights at declaration as they are too wide to just charge the Knights. Had Hammy been in column he could have declared a charge just on the Knights by the Ellies.
3. You move all charges in the same sub-phase on the detailed sequence (see the table) but the charger chooses the order if it matters and here it does IMO.
4. If James does the Ellies first, then they contact as shown and it looks like the Cv may drop back one to get past friends hitting the right hand file, and expand to overlap on the right later.
5. If the Cav are moved first the cav go in and block the front of the spears The Ellies then contract by one as aloowed BUT they have to try to charge the Sp and the knight, their target hasn't changed. We played it that they contacted the Sp on the side edge as a frontal charge in column. Hammy then chooses which ones fight (having more bases) so probably chooses 2 dice from the Ellies and 2 from the cav and in Movement the Ellies conform to be an overlap. The Knights do not get hit in this version.

The wheel issues is interesting and not one I had considered but the intent of that is that you cannot wheel to get less bases in than you could by not wheeling. The fall back is not part of a wheel so I would say in this case the Ellies can wheel once in column as long as they don't get less that 1 base into contact It's a separate concept to me. That does not however mean they can change thier target and the Spears get hit first and there ain't no 2nd base now to press forward.

Course that's not to say it is how it should work...

Si

[hammy]

5. If the Cav are moved first the cav go in and block the front of the spears The Ellies then contract by one as aloowed BUT they have to try to charge the Sp and the knight, their target hasn't changed. We played it that they contacted the Sp on the side edge as a frontal charge in column. Hammy then chooses which ones fight (having more bases) so probably chooses 2 dice from the Ellies and 2 from the cav and in Movement the Ellies conform to be an overlap. The Knights do not get hit in this version.

Just to complicate things it was not possible for the elephants in column to contact both the spear and the knights. They could contact either but not both.

[shall]

Actually I think that siomplifies it as you then have the choice had they been in column. It actually being 2 wide that makes it interesting as you have to declare on both and will hit the SP first.

Si