Protected troops...is there any point?

[madaxeman]

Most if not all troop types seem to have some sort of weapon grade that will give them a + POA in melee, so given these usually net out, being "armoured" as well seems to me to be almost mandatory for any troop type who expects to fight toe-to-toe with the enemy. Without it you are nearly always a POA down.

Is there any sort of troop type (heavy weapon and Pike excepted) who can really claim to be a "line of battle" troop type who can get away with being just protected?

[SirGarnet]

Spears vs. Swordsmen POA to offset Armoured? Impact Foot relying on that first onset, or superior numbers/overlap if that fails against Armoured? Protected Lancers with the same idea in mind? They can win - though of course the opposing Armoured do have that POA to help in protracted combat.

Plus lots of enemy are protected?

Mike

[rbodleyscott]

Is there any sort of troop type (heavy weapon and Pike excepted) who can really claim to be a "line of battle" troop type who can get away with being just protected?

It rather depends on what you want to use them for, and whether or not you are going to be playing contemporary opponents.

If you want to go head to head with pikes, armoured hoplites or good quality legionaries, then being armoured would be a good idea. If your army doesn't have armoured foot, it will have to win the battle by means other than going head to head with the enemy's best troops. This should not be hard to arrange for a man of your skill. You will have more troops for a start.

Fighting the heavy bludgeon with the wet sponge is always a challenge, but that's all part of the fun. (If you don't like starting on the back foot, bring the heavy bludgeon - and see the other side of the coin - difficulty protecting flanks, frustration when the enemy won't fight your bludgeon, etc.)

[hammy]

Superior protected heavy foot offensive spear anyone?

That is an IMO perfectly valid line of battle troop classification that works fine as protected.

Average protected troops are unlikely to be dominant but can still unhinge enemy troops in the right situation.

[nikgaukroger]

Protected shooty cavalry seem useful

[jlopez]

I used a Medieval Portugese army with lots of protected infantry (see list below) at the Granada competition last weekend. It was an experiment to determine whether protected and shooty infantry could stand a chance in an open competition.

My Portugese:

IC
2 x TC

1 BG 6 Und., LF, Unpr., poor, Jav., L.Spear
2 BGs 4 Dr., LF, Unpr., ave., Firearms
2 BGs 8 Und., LF, Unpr., poor, Bow
1 BG 4 Und., LH, Prot., ave., Jav., L.Spear
1 BG 4 Und., LH, Prot., ave., Xbow
2 BGs 8 Und., MF, Prot., ave, Xbow
1 BG 4 Dr., MF, Prot., ave, Xbow
2 BGs 8 Und., MF, Prot., ave, Bow
2 BGs 8 Und., HF, Prot., ave, Def. Spear
2 BGs 4 Und., Kn, H.Arm., Sup., Lance, Swordsmen

Standard deployment: Spearmen in the center with drilled Xbow in support. Two BGs of MF on each flank each supported by a BG of knights. LF javelinmen in the centre to delay enemy and 1 BG of LF archers and hangunners and one of LH on each flank to support the MF's shooting.

My opponents were:

Mameluk Egyptian: Won 16-4. A timely charge by my knights followed by an expansion into an adjacent unit allowed me to pin a couple of Mameluk units which otherwise would have ridden down my MF on the left flank. I then proceeded to shoot the elements which combined with the knights was enough to defeat the infidel. Destroyed a couple of LF holding the centre with shooting. Ineffective shooting on the right flank against dismounted Mameluks although it was starting to get dicey when time was called.

Medieval Aragonese: Won 14-6. Swept the right flank with massed shooting from 3 BGs of MF against his shooters and lights. Retreated from his Almughavars on the left flank and kept them out of the game throughout. Started wiping out the centre with my supporting right flank knights then his equally bionic protected defensive spearmen proceeded to wipe out three of my units in a row. Still, I'm not bitter.

Medieval Castilian: Draw 12-8. 15 Bgs, of which 4 of 4 superior knights! He concentrated his army in one third of the table where all the terrain was while I was more strung out. While I was unable to make full use of my MF due to lack of space and the distance I had to cover to get to him, he was unable to advance quickly enough because of the terrain. I shot up a couple of units for the loss of my javelinmen. A couple more turns and I was in trouble.

Medieval Cypriot: Won 24-1. Poor player, shot his widely dispersed army to bits all along the line then finished him off with my spearmen.

Conclusion: The army worked but it struggled to break enemy armies so if you plan on winning the competition then go for heavier, better quality, shock troops. One thing I have to say in favour of protected infantry is that it does make for VERY exciting (as in sweaty palms) games which is a welcome change from the far more effective if a little boring armies I have used previously (Latin Greece, Parthian, Free Company, Bosphoran, Huns and a "competition" Medieval Portugese with English Ubermenschen). Another thing I discovered is that undrilled troops are an absolute bitch to manoeuvre with when you only have three generals and you have to choose between bolstering disrupted units or sheperding MF into the optimum shooting position.

Julian

[madaxeman]

OK - put it a different way.

Armoured seems a relatively valuable POA.

It counts against nearly everything, and is usually "in addition to" a specialist weapon class (that frankly nearly everyone has one of anyway) so it often will give a net POA against "bog-standard" protected troops.

Isn't "a bit more armour than the usual" a bit, well, weak to be so much of an advantage? If "superior" is mathematically around half a POA, being armoured is better than being superior?

[spring]

Reminds me of this discussion

viewtopic.php?t=6320&highlight=prot+sup



At that time i felt the trend was rather "i"ll take armoured rather than Sup" for many...

[paulcummins]

I thought the same about EAP Imortals - Armour? thats just an extra POA in combat, excellent.
Then I met some Thracians with HW - ouch.
It tends to be more expensive than most POA - superior protetcted HW - 9 points, superior armoured no kit - 10 pts.

[jlopez]

I tend to agree with Tim. If you compare a Gallic with a (ave., Armoured) Mid Republican army, the Gauls tend to have one or two extra units but these do not compensate for the fact the rest of the army have to fight with -POA against the Romans. Put another way, if I take 32 average legionaries as protected instead of armoured I save 64 points which will buy me...a unit of 8 HF, drilled, average offensive spear.

Personally, I have no doubt which is the best option. Same argument goes with upgrading morale, for me it's a no-brainer.

Julian

[dave_r]

Really depends on what you are going to use the Protected troops for.

If you are using Protected Off Spear, then these are exactly the same against Knights as Armoured Off Spear (or indeed any heavily armoured opponent). However, if you are going to go Toe to Toe with other Armoured Foot, then the chances are you are going to lose.

If you have an army's worth of Protected Off Spear then these can work very well - mainly down to weight of numbers.

In the impact phase there is no armour bonus, so protected impact foot can work if you disrupt your armoured opponent in the impact phase.

I take the point though at the moment I don't really like taking Protected Foot as Armoured Foot are just that much more solid.

[madaxeman]

Hi dave

Thats been my general conclusion too. When my protected spears were on evens with armoured roman javelin cavalry.... they seem to be almost useless as anything other than a blocker for skirmishers, or are sort of only good (value) against heavily armoured knights -

[dave_r]

At Athens I spent basically the whole tournament hiding the protected off spear from the enemy. As soon as they got close to enemy (i.e. got shot at / involved in hand to hand combat) they got butchered.

Armoured MF with Light Spear, Sword took them out in one game!

Won't be using them again with the Skythians.

Protected MF tends not to be too bad as long as you don't come up against the Armoured Roman ones. Or Dailami.

[IanB3406]

At Athens I spent basically the whole tournament hiding the protected off spear from the enemy. As soon as they got close to enemy (i.e. got shot at / involved in hand to hand combat) they got butchered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far my experience even with Medium Foot Theorophori is they can be very vulnerable to skirmishers. I have gotten a 6Base unit javelined to death rapidly by a equal number of LF on the flank, and it's even more trouble if more shooters gang up. Armor is an easy decision given the choice.

Ian

[jlopez]

At Athens I spent basically the whole tournament hiding the protected off spear from the enemy. As soon as they got close to enemy (i.e. got shot at / involved in hand to hand combat) they got butchered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far my experience even with Medium Foot Theorophori is they can be very vulnerable to skirmishers. I have gotten a 6Base unit javelined to death rapidly by a equal number of LF on the flank, and it's even more trouble if more shooters gang up. Armor is an easy decision given the choice.

Ian

As a rule I tend to take protected foot in groups of 8 to make them more resistant to shooting. Same goes for LF. Most of the time they can't get the three hits required for a cohesion test and there are a surprising number of situations where they simply can't get enough bases to shoot at you to get the minimum 3 dice.

Julian