Could I have opinions on the following Early Successor list please...
Antigonos Monophthalmus 15 BGs
CinC 1x FC
Subs 3x TC
Slings 8x LF Ave Unp Dr S -- --
Javelins 8x LF Ave Unp Dr Jv LS --
Cretans 6x LF Sup Unp Dr B -- --
Pike 4@ 8x HF Ave Pro Dr -- Pk Pk
Iphikrateans 3@ 6x MF Ave Pro Dr -- OS Sp
Light Cavalry 2@ 4x LH Ave Unp Dr Jv LS --
Medes 4x LH Ave Unp Un B -- --
Xystophoroi 4x Cv Sup Arm Dr -- La Sw
Elephants 2x El Ave Un
Int. +2
After reading Mike K.'s comments, I am thinking of running the elephants between the pike blocks, set one row back, screening them with the lights. I assume the best place for the Xystophoroi is behind the block ready to swing out and counter any flank threat ?
The MF would contest any terrain, and the LH to skirmish on an open flank to delay the enemy, hopefully with ample support from my dice.
Is 15 Bgs too many though at 800 pts ?
Cheers
One eye
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rbodleyscott
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I think that Pikes need to be in 12's than 8's. Others would argue that 8's are better. Possibly one that needs to be tried for personal preference.
Cretans - Again my personal opinion is that Superior LF are a waste of points. Give there are only six of them, then you are only going to get a re-roll once every other shooting bound. Don't bother spend the points elsewhere.
Lancer Cavalry - if these are going to be actually fighting (and they have no ranged capability) then they work much better in 6's.
I wouldn't put the elephants between the pikes - the pikes are likely to "attract" Armoured offensive spearmen (they will butcher most other things) and jumbos aren' too clever against pikemen. This is likely to lead to an elephant sized hole in the middle of you pike phalanx, which in turn will lead to a phalanx sized hole in the middle of your line!
The focus of your army appears to be LF and MF with some heavy foot to put in the open bits of the table - i.e. you need terrain. Might be worth attempting to get an IC to give you a +3 PBI so you gain the initiative more often than not.
My personal choice is that I don't have MF and LF in BG's of 8. Whilst it maximises shooting it also limits their ability to occupy terrain. With a four element frontage it is not easy to keep in rough going away from nasty cavalry and knights and such like. Evading can get tricky as well. The extra points would enable you to get an IC as noted above.
Cretans - Again my personal opinion is that Superior LF are a waste of points. Give there are only six of them, then you are only going to get a re-roll once every other shooting bound. Don't bother spend the points elsewhere.
Lancer Cavalry - if these are going to be actually fighting (and they have no ranged capability) then they work much better in 6's.
I wouldn't put the elephants between the pikes - the pikes are likely to "attract" Armoured offensive spearmen (they will butcher most other things) and jumbos aren' too clever against pikemen. This is likely to lead to an elephant sized hole in the middle of you pike phalanx, which in turn will lead to a phalanx sized hole in the middle of your line!
The focus of your army appears to be LF and MF with some heavy foot to put in the open bits of the table - i.e. you need terrain. Might be worth attempting to get an IC to give you a +3 PBI so you gain the initiative more often than not.
My personal choice is that I don't have MF and LF in BG's of 8. Whilst it maximises shooting it also limits their ability to occupy terrain. With a four element frontage it is not easy to keep in rough going away from nasty cavalry and knights and such like. Evading can get tricky as well. The extra points would enable you to get an IC as noted above.
There's a split of opinion on 8s and 12s for Pikes and chances are whichever you take there are situations where you wish you had the other. 12s are definitely better for taking shooting or leading an attack in echelon. You might want to try a mix of 12 and 8.
Where the Elephants should go is situational so they are likely to go down later in order of march where they can be useful despite their limited maneuverability. I agree putting them in the middle of a solid pike line is not good. Elephants are vulnerable when isolated and suffering overlaps or converged shooting, so Elephantophiles recommend pairing Elephant BGs together for concentrated hitting power and flank support, as well as providing further flank coverage. Given that you have only one heavy cavalry BG, the Elephants are probably going to end up often brigaded with that and a screening LF in a role covering a flank of the infantry. One of the MF would also be suitable flank support for Elephants.
One typical battle order being spearmen on one wing of the pikes and mounted on the other, the solidity and frontage of spears in 8s is helpful - deploying an 8-base BG 3-wide next to the Pikes gives increased staying power if you can accept the slightly shorter frontage.
Your Iphikrateans are MF, giving them a dual role in terrrain but they can be soft in line of battle against some opponents (such as HF or armoured hoplites). You might compromise and save points by making one of 6 bases and one of 8.
LF shooters in 6s are generally favored as cheaper and more maneuverable than 8s while still usefully throwing 3 shooting dice (8s often end up splitting their shooting across two targets anyway - smaller BGs are easier to point at the desired target). However, leaving the Javelinmen with Light Spear in 8s will make them more effective against other LF and can make even lone LH BGs wary of close combat. (The same argument applies to Javelin/Light Spear LH intended to chase off other LH.)
The thing about shooters is that unless you are throwing a substantial number of dice at a target shooting won't do much, and if screening is the key role of a BG of LF then paying the extra points for bowmen (especially superior ones) is arguably a waste of points, and taking more small BGs of LF provides more screening capability than large.
However, the wonderful thing about these rules and the points balancng is that no one approach is going to be best in all cases - armies can be raised with varying designs and doctrines that each hang together well in a fight (or conversely can be a disjoint jumble that works poorly together!).
Mike
Where the Elephants should go is situational so they are likely to go down later in order of march where they can be useful despite their limited maneuverability. I agree putting them in the middle of a solid pike line is not good. Elephants are vulnerable when isolated and suffering overlaps or converged shooting, so Elephantophiles recommend pairing Elephant BGs together for concentrated hitting power and flank support, as well as providing further flank coverage. Given that you have only one heavy cavalry BG, the Elephants are probably going to end up often brigaded with that and a screening LF in a role covering a flank of the infantry. One of the MF would also be suitable flank support for Elephants.
One typical battle order being spearmen on one wing of the pikes and mounted on the other, the solidity and frontage of spears in 8s is helpful - deploying an 8-base BG 3-wide next to the Pikes gives increased staying power if you can accept the slightly shorter frontage.
Your Iphikrateans are MF, giving them a dual role in terrrain but they can be soft in line of battle against some opponents (such as HF or armoured hoplites). You might compromise and save points by making one of 6 bases and one of 8.
LF shooters in 6s are generally favored as cheaper and more maneuverable than 8s while still usefully throwing 3 shooting dice (8s often end up splitting their shooting across two targets anyway - smaller BGs are easier to point at the desired target). However, leaving the Javelinmen with Light Spear in 8s will make them more effective against other LF and can make even lone LH BGs wary of close combat. (The same argument applies to Javelin/Light Spear LH intended to chase off other LH.)
The thing about shooters is that unless you are throwing a substantial number of dice at a target shooting won't do much, and if screening is the key role of a BG of LF then paying the extra points for bowmen (especially superior ones) is arguably a waste of points, and taking more small BGs of LF provides more screening capability than large.
However, the wonderful thing about these rules and the points balancng is that no one approach is going to be best in all cases - armies can be raised with varying designs and doctrines that each hang together well in a fight (or conversely can be a disjoint jumble that works poorly together!).
Mike
Personally I find pikes in BGs of 8 or 12 too fragile in combat. As soon as you lose a base, you lose a POA in that file and one thing you can count on is losing bases. I recommend them in BGs of 10, two wide and five deep if you intend to win the battle with them rather than use them as a base for other troops. That way you can take two losses before you lose punch which is often how long it takes before you can get the upper hand against those pesky superior Romans.
Generally speaking I ALWAYS field LF in BGs of 8. The fact you need to receive three hits before you take a cohesion test is critical. It means for example that one BG of 6 LF at long range or a single BG of 4 LH can't make you test without friends helping out. Same goes for MF that are going into the frontline. It won't win you games but certainly makes it more difficult to lose.
My only doubt with your list is how you hope to protect both the phalanx's flanks? The Peltasts won't do it and neither will your mounted. I suspect you'll end up peeling off pike units to bolster the flanks which doesn't leave you with a lot to attack with. A unit of HF hoplites on either flank might do better. Don't count on terrain to do the job for you, I have rarely found it to be a problem when facing pike armies.
Julian
Generally speaking I ALWAYS field LF in BGs of 8. The fact you need to receive three hits before you take a cohesion test is critical. It means for example that one BG of 6 LF at long range or a single BG of 4 LH can't make you test without friends helping out. Same goes for MF that are going into the frontline. It won't win you games but certainly makes it more difficult to lose.
My only doubt with your list is how you hope to protect both the phalanx's flanks? The Peltasts won't do it and neither will your mounted. I suspect you'll end up peeling off pike units to bolster the flanks which doesn't leave you with a lot to attack with. A unit of HF hoplites on either flank might do better. Don't count on terrain to do the job for you, I have rarely found it to be a problem when facing pike armies.
Julian