Of Rome and Carthage, and their common history.

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Redpossum
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Of Rome and Carthage, and their common history.

Post by Redpossum »

tora_tora_tora wrote:Ajax, Odyssey, and Acilles participated the siege of Troy.And roman people are originaly from Troy.
That's a tricky one.

According to Virgil, Aeneas was the only trojan hero to escape the fall of Troy. Aeneas was the son of Prince Anchises, and the goddess Aphrodite was his mother.

So Aeneas wanders around the Mediterranean a while, has wild adventures (again suspiciously resembling those of Odysseus), and finally winds up in Carthage. Yes, Carthage.

Now, Carthage was a very new city at that time. It had recently been founded by Dido (also known as Elissa), a princess of Tyre. Pause for a moment to consider what sort of a woman Dido must have been.

Anyhow, so Dido and Aeneas had a wild affair. Then Dido proposed that Aeneas and his folk settle in Carthage, and that she and he rule both peoples together.

But it was not meant to be, and the gods sent Mercury to remind Aeneas that he was on a mission. So he left, and Dido killed herself in grief, pronouncing a curse on his house as she did.

Aeneas and his folk then went to Italy. Aeneas himself was the founder of the Julian line. That's Julian as in Gaius Julius. Yes, the descendants of Aeneas were among the founders of Rome.

Two points here.

One, how amazingly inter-connected it all is.

Two, think how history might have changed if Aeneas and his followers had chosen to remain in Carthage.
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quite complex and interesting history

Post by tora_tora_tora »

Quite complicated history around Greeks and Romans. Greeks seem to be ocean going people. They migrated to southern Italy, Sicily, and southern France. the giant who shoulders heaven,Atlas and the mysterious continent Atlantic are somewhere near Morocco.

PS
I'm playing demo with celts army. fanatics are haivng both light infantry's character and heavy infantry character.
I want to breed frenzy fanatics.
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Post by spedius01 »

Ave possum,

Fascinating!

I've learned far more from your post about the origins of Rome and Carthage than I ever knew before.

I've tended to concentrate on the Roman army almost to the exclusion of anything other than that.

More, please.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
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spedius01
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Re: quite complex and interesting history

Post by spedius01 »

tora_tora_tora wrote:I'm playing demo with celts army. fanatics are haivng both light infantry's character and heavy infantry character.
I want to breed frenzy fanatics.
Ave tora_tora_tora,

How have you manage to be "playing the demo with celts army"?

I thought that in the demo the squads.txt file was in fact a squads.dat file?

How have you managed to unlock the .dat file and change things so that you can now play using the Celts?

Please explain how you were able to do this with simple step by step details?

Vale

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tora_tora_tora
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Re: quite complex and interesting history

Post by tora_tora_tora »

spedius01 wrote: I thought that in the demo the squads.txt file was in fact a squads.dat file?

How have you managed to unlock the .dat file and change things so that you can now play using the Celts?

Please explain how you were able to do this with simple step by step details?
Demo has certain amount of celtic army units already. Archers, Nobles, Veterans, Fanatics, celtic general, and skirmishers.
So I don't have to find their animation and so on. So basically, what you and miki find out works. I did not do anything new.

step1 open data folder and find arenasides txt.
step2 change first line like this
Republican 1 25000 25000 0 11 22 22 22 22 8 8 8 8 14 14 14 1 0 4
25000 means the startup denarii, 11 means the number of startup units, 22 means celtic general, 8 means archers, 14 means fanatics
(thanks to miki, am I right?) 1 0 4 meaning I don't know.
And start up the demo, you cannot recruite celtic army units, though startup units are 4 celtic generals, 4 celtic archers, 3 fanatics.
And so far by now, there seems no error or malfunctioning. It works.

So, all general army is also possible.
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Post by spedius01 »

Ave tora_tora_tora,

Well spotted, you're the first person, as far as I know, who has tried this "mod".

Welcome to the "modders" "Roll of Honour".

Congratulations.

Vale

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Redpossum
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Post by Redpossum »

spedius01 wrote:Ave possum,

Fascinating!

I've learned far more from your post about the origins of Rome and Carthage than I ever knew before.

I've tended to concentrate on the Roman army almost to the exclusion of anything other than that.

More, please.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
OK, here goes.

Another thing that bears thinking about when studying Carthage is the issue of just who were these carthaginians? It is worth pausing to consider that we know the carthaginian/phoenician people only through the eyes of their enemies. They left no records of their own, their culture having been too throughly smashed.

Carthage was founded as a colony of Tyre, by princess Dido, at about the same time as the Trojan War. Consider, the Trojan war lasted 16 or 17 years. Yet Aeneas, fleeing its aftermath, still found Dido a young and beautiful woman. This means two things. One, the city was still very new. Two, Dido was a very young woman when she founded the city. What an amazing woman she must have been. What strength of personality she must have had, and incredible boldness, to launch upon such an adventure.

The Phoenicians were apparently a semitic people, of an ethnic origin in common with the arabs and hebrews. They are described as rather dark-olive of complexion, with prominent curved noses, and a stocky, sturdy, barrel-chested build, (let us hope the last applied only to the men...).

(to be continued, RL has rudely intruded upon my pseudo-scholarly scribblings)
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Post by spedius01 »

Ave possum,

Please do continue where you left off.

Truly top rate interesting information.

Vale

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Carthage

Post by honvedseg »

Bear in mind that the "history" we are discussing was written hundreds of years after the fact, if there was actually any factual basis behind it at all. At that point, it may be that the author was merely seeking to "justify" the existance of Rome from a moral standpoint, and give it "roots" as far back as those of the surrounding Etruscan, Carthaginian, and Greek civilizations. It probably got tiring having all of the neighbors call them a bunch of young "punks".

Most of the Roman "historical" writing needs to be taken with a grain of salt, "The Aeniad" needs the full shaker.
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Post by Redpossum »

(continued...)

If you read older histories, those written in the modern era, but prior to the second world war, you may find the phoenicians referred to as a "hamitic" people. This is an obsolete and now discredited term, which was originally based on a shamelessly racist view of history. See the entry under "hamitic" at wikipedia if you want to know more.

By nature, the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were an intensely mercantile people. They did not make war for glory, or for religion. They went to war only to gain or protect markets or resources. The original source of friction between Carthage and Rome was access and control of the Iberian tin mines.

The Phoenicians were arguably the master mariners of the ancient world, although they shared that distinction with the Carians. Carthage was quite familiar with the Atlantic outside the Gates of Hercules. Carthage worked the tin mines in Cornwall, and it has been suggested by one author that the people of Cornwall, with their distinctive appearance and accent, actually number Carthaginians among their ethnic antecendents.

Carthaginians also traded all down the west coast of Africa, and there is considerable evidence that they conducted gold mining operations at several locations in southern Africa.

Difficult to believe, I know, but the wave pattern found on the walls at the "Lost City of Zimbabwe", (for which the nation once known as Rhodesia is now named), are almost identical to the traditional wave pattern with which the Carthaginians decorated everything from pottery to buildings.

Again, the Carthaginians were all about trade. They bought goods cheaply at one port, and traded them at another port where they fetched a higher price. They bought raw materials and processed them into finished goods. They mined ores and refined them into ingots for sale, or combined them to make alloys. They are said to have been the inventors of the process whereby gold and silver were alloyed to form electrum. Certainly they mined copper and tin, alloyed the two, and sold them as bronze ingots.

They were not very interested in the arts, from what we can discover. As far as I know, no examples of carthaginian art have ever been found, other than some bronze figurines, which are tentatively suggested to have been family honor objects, much like the roman family masks.

Caveat - The idea of the Carthaginians having anything to do with Zimbabwe is emphatically not the accepted scientific explanation. Officially it is credited to the ancestors of the modern-day Shona tribe, and claimed to have been constructed in the 12-15th century AD. As you read that article at Wikipedia, remember that carbon-14 only works on organic matter. You cannot date a stone wall, because it was never alive.
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Carthage and Phoenecia

Post by honvedseg »

There was some speculation at one time that the South American cultures may have been influenced by the Mediterranean cultures, the Ra raft expedition was an attempt to check the feasability of that. Note that the South and Central American pyramids do not resemble the Egyptian ones at all, they are more like the Babylonian and Sumerian ziggerauts. Such influence would have been much more likely from a Phoenecian or Carthaginian exploration than from an Egyptian one.

The Greeks probably learned the art of ship building from a Phoenecian source, or else both learned it from an earlier Minoan culture.
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Post by duncan »

You guys are great.

Thanks for all the info!
"The Art Of War: Fantasy" supporter!
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Post by Redpossum »

Hmm, this thread has languished for 8 months or more now.

I keep thinking about it. I have more to write. But the part that remains to be said is going to be controversial, highly controversial. And someone is probably going to take offense, unless I really surpass myself in terms of eloquence and persuasiveness.

Because, you see, the next part involves issues of religion. Religions of the ancients, to be sure, but most of those religions live on today in some form.
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