The power of retreating units...

[ptje63]

Have a question about retreating units...
On the map (Japanese mod IJA Campaign 1938-45) - Chinese infantry has just "retreated" after being attacked by my Jap infantry, occupuying the city.
The Chinese infantry then retreated as can be seen by the red arrow.
Which actually meant they retreated crossing the river...
As a prelude to my infantry attack I used my artillery, so the Chinese infantry had a "red"/suppressed 8 - after the retreat an unsupressed "6".
After which I tried an attack with my southern Infantry - leaving the Chinese infantry with an unsuppressed "5" strength.
But - I dont understand - does the meaning of a retreat in practise mean gaining ground AND loosing being suppressed?

[captainjack]

The short answer is yes. A direct attack removes suppression and may cause a unit to retreat into a better position.

In a bit more detail:
A unit will retreat after an attack if it has 0 entrenchment and all remaining strength is suppressed. If it has nowhere to go to (completely surrounded by other units or by terrain it can't enter) it surrenders. Sometimes the retreat moves it into a favourable position. About two years ago someone posted an explanation of how retreating units choose where to move to when they have a choice. If you understand this you have a better chance of forcing a retreating unit somewhere that suits you (eg forcing tanks into close terrain, or anything into a river, or into a position where you can attack it again).

Air, naval and artillery attacks don't remove suppression, but suppression is removed after all other attacks.

When you are defending against a lot of tough units (eg most of 43 and 44 east), knowing how to get the most out of retreats and surrenders (and knowing how to avoid them so that you can keep a very weak unit between you and a full strength one) can make a big difference.

[ptje63]

I see- so the retreating infantry could also have moved to the north-eastern or southern hex, which means ending up in the river - the hex it now occupies has better chances for defense.

[Neubaufahrzeug]

and may cause a unit to retreat into a better position.

Into a ZOC? Strange...
The only retreat direction should be to north-west.

[Imarion]

The FAQ has lots of interesting information:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=27283

Among them this very detailed retreat mechanics explanation:
viewtopic.php?t=38631

[Neubaufahrzeug]

Among them this very detailed retreat mechanics explanation:
viewtopic.php?t=38631

Thanks!

Well, this confirms my mind.

1. retreat hex: northwest (retreat directly opposite of the attacker not possible), ZOC-free and ""right-handed"
2. retreat hex south, ZOC and "left-handed"
3. retreat hex southeast, ZOC and retreat in the attacker's direction

So the unit in the situation shown by ptje63 followed not the "Retreat Mechanics".

[ThvN]

1. retreat hex: northwest (retreat directly opposite of the attacker not possible), ZOC-free and ""right-handed"
2. retreat hex south, ZOC and "left-handed"
3. retreat hex southeast, ZOC and retreat in the attacker's direction

So the unit in the situation shown by ptje63 followed not the "Retreat Mechanics".

Are you sure? I think it did actually, because the northwest hex is impassable (major river), only a bridge engineer could have retreated into it.

So the sequence is:

1. Unit first wants to retreat in opposite direction from the attack; impossible as this hex is occupied ->
2. The next hex clockwise (northwest) is checked, it's free but the terrain doesn't allow the unit to move into it ->
3. Next hex clockwise is checked (city), but this is occupied (I wonder what would happen if the attacker was destroyed but the unit still needed to retreat, would it go into the hex? ) ->
4. Next hex clockwise is checked, it's free and the terrain is suitable : bingo, there it goes. Into more trouble.

If that hex it went into had already been occupied, the unit would have been destroyed because the next (and last possible) hex is also a major river, so again impassable.


Bonus tip: this clockwise sequence of checking is also used to determine which fighter unit fires first during an intercept if there are several units available.

[ptje63]

I remember playing a 1945 scenario in which a Stalin tank retreated across a river in a similar way. 4 points left and unsuppressed. Had only weak/minor units surrounding it and no way of dealing with it for two turns. I felt its retreat more like a victory.

[ThvN]

Something like that can often neutralize a unit and allow you to isolate and bypass it without having to kill it. That is why I like strategic bombers; they can suppress a unit and deplete its ammo, allowing relatively weak ground units to force a retreat or even make it surrender. Or trying to get a unit to retreat to a specific hex where it will block powerful units on its own side, buying an extra turn to deal with those or get vulnerable units out of the frontline.

[Neubaufahrzeug]

Are you sure? I think it did actually, because the northwest hex is impassable (major river), only a bridge engineer could have retreated into it.

You are right - I overlooked the major river.

[ptje63]

pc retreating units.jpg (94.27 KiB) Viewed 3081 times

Here's another fine example... taken from the Dnipropetrosk scenario:

My artillery just hit the Soviet infantry after which the strongoint hit it, forcing it to retreat with 4 points remaining.
The infantry was positioned north of the strongpoint, can obviously not go to any other hex, including the Dnieper River, which can not be crossed.
Only hex remaining is the one north west of the strongpoint - see red arrow.
BUT - hurray! It now has successfully crossed the river - thanks!!!
Since my turn is over and no other units left to reach/attack the infantry it can easily be brought back to strength by the AI in the next turn...

From the analysis in the previous responses I now understand why this happens, but the logic...

[robman]

The mechanism is certainly "gamey," but it is not unrealistic that an exposed unit would retreat to a less exposed position. Anticipating such outcomes is part of the challenge of the game. Sometimes it is better to leave an exposed enemy unit in place if its retreat would make your task more difficult.

[ptje63]

Thats true - I sometimes leave damaged units in place where it lies in the way of a far more powerful AI unit just behind it...