Wars of the Roses Campaign

[Paul59]

Just to let everyone know my Wars of the Roses campaign is now available to download within the game.

I have adapted the standard Pike and Shot Campaigns ECW campaign for this conflict. The Field of Glory Wars of the Roses English Army list (from the Storm of Arrows booklet) were used as the basis for the army lists I have created for the campaign. The campaign starts in Late Spring 1455 (subsequent years are the usual 6 turns) and can be played as either Yorkist or Lancastrian.

In addition to the main campaign, the armies can be used for one off battles in Skirmish mode. For this reason I have also included Early Tudor, Richard III, and Yorkist Pretender armies.

To give graphical variety to the many different units of billmen, spearmen, archers etc, I have had to clone several of the existing units. As I do not have the .S3f files these units will not work in the Editor. I hope to correct this with a future update.

Many thanks to Richard for his help in completing the work.

I hope you enjoy this campaign.


Paul

[TheGrayMouser]

Just d/l. Nice job! I really like the look of the retinue mounted, with the barded horses, cheers!

[jomni]

Good effort! Any modification to rules to depict medieval warfare?

[Paul59]

Handgunners have been made 50% Arquebus, and artillery has been halved in unit size to reflect reduced firepower.

[TheGrayMouser]

Played a few battles last nite, good times and feels very Tudorish : )

some lessons learned

*Irish Kerns/warriors are hopeless for actual combat , best used to decoy or threaten vs actually engaging
*archers decimate unarmoured/low armoured troops
*high armoured troops (above 50 armour perhaps) are petty much immune to archery ( they still take causalties but likley will never need to test cohesion)

[Paul59]

Yes, the Kerns are a bit useless in melee, but I have just discovered that the skirmishers are quite effective at skirmishing against the spear and bill units. They can usually evade any charges, and are quite manoeuvrable so can get around flanks etc.

I find that the Retinue Longbow units are some of the most cost effective units, they have good firepower. Their swordsmen capability, little bit of armour and reasonable morale make them surprisingly good in melee, especially if in defensive terrain, and they get even better during a campaign if they can improve their quality with experience!

Also, with cavalry in short supply, it pays to invest in as much as you can when you raise new armies.

[KiwiWarlord]

Can this be played as a MP skirmish game?

[rbodleyscott]

Can this be played as a MP skirmish game?

Yes. You just need to download the MP version in-game.

[KiwiWarlord]

Done. Thanks

[bk917]

Thanks for taking the time to make the War of the Roses mod (and other medieval battles).

One idea - shouldn't the long bow archer be able to do indirect fire over one of their units into the enemy? I tried this and the game said their line of sight was blocked. Maybe allow the retinue and Welsh longbows fire indirectly, but not the militia longbows?

[rbodleyscott]

One idea - shouldn't the long bow archer be able to do indirect fire over one of their units into the enemy? I tried this and the game said their line of sight was blocked. Maybe allow the retinue and Welsh longbows fire indirectly, but not the militia longbows?

Although battle accounts of the Wars of the Roses are too vague to tell, accounts of Hundred Years War battles make it clear that longbowmen were normally deployed beside men-at-arms, not behind them. One must assume that indirect fire (over other units) while theoretically possible, was too inaccurate to be effective. Obviously rear ranks of an archer unit must have used somewhat indirect fire. However, massed archers shooting over the heads of friendly units is the stuff of fantasy novels, not history.

[Aryaman]

One idea - shouldn't the long bow archer be able to do indirect fire over one of their units into the enemy? I tried this and the game said their line of sight was blocked. Maybe allow the retinue and Welsh longbows fire indirectly, but not the militia longbows?

Although battle accounts of the Wars of the Roses are too vague to tell, accounts of Hundred Years War battles make it clear that longbowmen were normally deployed beside men-at-arms, not behind them. One must assume that indirect fire (over other units) while theoretically possible, was too inaccurate to be effective. Obviously rear ranks of an archer unit must have used somewhat indirect fire. However, massed archers shooting over the heads of friendly units is the stuff of fantasy novels, not history.

I recall that in the Late Empire archers were deployed behind 8 ranks of infantry to shoot over their heads, as recorded by Ammianus Marcellinus. I don´t see why longbowmen could not do it.

[rbodleyscott]

I recall that in the Late Empire archers were deployed behind 8 ranks of infantry to shoot over their heads, as recorded by Ammianus Marcellinus. I don´t see why longbowmen could not do it.

True, but these were only one or two rank of archers, and seem to have been there to help repel enemy charges (as in "Arrian's Order of Battle Against the Alans") rather than lay down a sustained fire. They were (at least temporarily) part of the same formation as the men in front.

Massed archers did not shoot over the heads of other units. I think the problem is likely to be one of fire control. Difficult to hit a target when even your officers can't see the target.

This issue has been hammered out over 45 years of tabletop Ancient/Medieval wargames rules design, and rules attempting to be historical, such as those published by the Wargames Research Group, stopped allowing one unit to shoot over another (except from higher ground) 40 years ago!

If you had access to the Slingshot archive (The Journal of the Society of Ancients) I could point you to the discussions where the issue was hammered out. They are available on CD, but not, I believe, on line.

[fogman]

i'm more concerned about artillery being placed on a hill way back and spraying the battlefield like modern heavy artillery; or for that matter, infantry formations firing from rear positions, which in reality would completely panic friendly formations in front of them in the heat of battle.

[bk917]

Got it . Thanks. I wasn't aware of the "scripture" on this issue, but should have realized that I wasn't the first to think of it. Thanks for the insight.

[jomni]

Well bowmen doing indirect fire is implemented in my Japanese mod.

[LordValentai]

Fantastic mod!

I've been waiting for someone with the skills to create a medieval style battle, and this is pretty close!

Good work.

[rbodleyscott]

Fantastic mod!

I've been waiting for someone with the skills to create a medieval style battle, and this is pretty close!

Also check out the Bosworth and Towton scenarios by Odenathus.

[Jagger2002]

I have really enjoyed playing your War of the Roses mod. Great job!

Although I am wondering about one point. I noticed that militia longbowmen have the swordsmen special capability. The FOG Storm of Arrows army list also gives them the swordsmen capability. It certainly seems appropriate for tough retinue longbowman but should militia longbowman have the swordsmen capability? As a specialized skill, I wonder how we can have militia bowmen as skilled with the sword as a Spanish sword and buckler man or the gendarme or man at arms?

Also I was wondering if you are doing any work to expand the WOR mod to include other Late Medieval Storm of Arrows armies within your mod? It seems you have the basic unit graphics to include other late medieval armies. Of course, it wouldn't be a pure War of the Roses mod anymore but a late medieval expansion would certainly be welcomed.

[Paul59]

I have really enjoyed playing your War of the Roses mod. Great job!

Although I am wondering about one point. I noticed that militia longbowmen have the swordsmen special capability. The FOG Storm of Arrows army list also gives them the swordsmen capability. It certainly seems appropriate for tough retinue longbowman but should militia longbowman have the swordsmen capability? As a specialized skill, I wonder how we can have militia bowmen as skilled with the sword as a Spanish sword and buckler man or the gendarme or man at arms?

Also I was wondering if you are doing any work to expand the WOR mod to include other Late Medieval Storm of Arrows armies within your mod? It seems you have the basic unit graphics to include other late medieval armies. Of course, it wouldn't be a pure War of the Roses mod anymore but a late medieval expansion would certainly be welcomed.

Hi,

Yes, I based all the unit capabilities on those in the FOG army lists. What you say about the Militia Longbowmen seems to make sense, but I am sure that Richard and his team had good reasons for their ratings. Perhaps the Militia's Raw quality rating reflects their lack of skill with the sword compared to the other troop types you mention?

I have considered an Extra Nations type Mod based around the 15th Century, but at the moment I am too interested in creating more Nine Years War scenarios and then maybe expanding into the early 18th Century with the Great Northern War and WSS. I also think it would be better to wait and see what Slitherine release officially, at the very least it seems that the new Sengoku Jidai game would be a better basis for a medieval simulation.


Regards