Hi all,
Recently checked my stock of unpainted lead and found a massive amount of cataphracts waiting to be incoporated
enough to build 24 bases ( with 4 figs)...
I know myself, and when i like a troop type i've the inapropriate tendency of wanting to build an army with this only
troop type (i don't own a classical greek army for nothing...).Cataphracts are a true love and have always been kind to
me in the past games using other rule sets ((palmyran army mainly)using my friends figs).
AAR's have shown that they do stand a chance in comp ( at least in period) even when used in big numbers, but most of the time
Parthians seem the main army for this kind of cataphracts heavy style. I do like the idea of using something like 18 to 24 bases of
cataphracts but not sure i want just loads of LH to go with those dudes.
Is Parthians style ( (cata+ truck loads of LH) Palmyr allow something similar) the only reasonable choice when you want to use such
an amount and bring them to a themed comp ((not open) still with the chance of facing different king of armies), or is there another
viable option, Kushan with elephants? I'm aware that there are armies offering a similar big amount of cataphracts but i'm not sure they
offer the same flexibility of a parthian army and yet i'd rather like to try something different than parthians and still keep a similar amount
of flexibility.
I'm sure a northen chinese dynasty would fit the bill, but the book is not in sight... So, any idea?
Cataphracts and then?
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I will say I am impressed - thats 4-6 BGs of Cataphracts. I've never thought to check a maximum for Cataphracts before! Palmyran 24 (Drilled as a nice option for some), Parthian and Armenian 18, Kushan 16, so for Parthians or Armenians you would need an ally to get your Cataphracts all on the table and for Kushan a Kushan ally could get you 22 (extra figs can go on command stands anyway). The Armenians are out if you want Steppes available.
In any case, that's approaching 500 points for Cataphracts, which doesn't leave a lot of room for other troops.
Any way you slice it, you need some LH to try to screen whatever you want to keep away from the target area. They all have some Bow LH, Palmyrans adding Light Spear and Kushans adding Jav/LSp types or the option of Bow/Swords (Kushans are purchasable as Cav Bw/Sw but Unprotected). Kushans have the best variety to work with.
Elephants are actually much cheaper frontage than Cataphracts - with Kushan you can get enough to matter, Parthians a token 2. That and the compulsories eat up points. The bright spot is that you can afford to use TCs.
For a tournament, I think most people would say not to take a small foot contingent that would just serve as a target, so you take the minimums, as LF if possible, or MF for rear support/flank guards for Cataphracts. But if you know your opponent, the infantry options become important to allow you to substantially reconfigure the army and you need to look at those. The Palmyrans offer the most options with good Roman types available, the Parthians only one BG of Avg MF and the Kushans a decent choice of rear support troops that can also contest inconvenient pieces of terrain if not opposed by better.
All in all, if you want supporting troop flexibility, are willing to give up the Drilled Cataphract option, and won't ever need Romans, Kushan seems promising among these options.
Some interesting design issues here.
Mike
In any case, that's approaching 500 points for Cataphracts, which doesn't leave a lot of room for other troops.
Any way you slice it, you need some LH to try to screen whatever you want to keep away from the target area. They all have some Bow LH, Palmyrans adding Light Spear and Kushans adding Jav/LSp types or the option of Bow/Swords (Kushans are purchasable as Cav Bw/Sw but Unprotected). Kushans have the best variety to work with.
Elephants are actually much cheaper frontage than Cataphracts - with Kushan you can get enough to matter, Parthians a token 2. That and the compulsories eat up points. The bright spot is that you can afford to use TCs.
For a tournament, I think most people would say not to take a small foot contingent that would just serve as a target, so you take the minimums, as LF if possible, or MF for rear support/flank guards for Cataphracts. But if you know your opponent, the infantry options become important to allow you to substantially reconfigure the army and you need to look at those. The Palmyrans offer the most options with good Roman types available, the Parthians only one BG of Avg MF and the Kushans a decent choice of rear support troops that can also contest inconvenient pieces of terrain if not opposed by better.
All in all, if you want supporting troop flexibility, are willing to give up the Drilled Cataphract option, and won't ever need Romans, Kushan seems promising among these options.
Some interesting design issues here.
Mike
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Ghaznavid
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I'm missing early Sassanians here, up to 18 Cataphracts, up to 6 El, more LH then you ever want, the optional armoured horse archers, some interesting allies (including the possibility to add more cats) and foot options. And you also can field the army as a rather different animal simply by loading up more on the armoured horse archers and going lighter on the cataphracts.
Karsten
~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~
~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~
Quite right about the Sassanids - was thinking of them as a horsebow force. Also, they have no Steppes (like the poor Mongols).
Maxing Cataphracts is expensive. My Parthian 799 draft list would be only 16 in 3 BGs with 34 LH in 7 BGs and then a Bow and a Sling BG in order to get +4 Initiative after counting the IC. This comes to 12 BGs so the Cats can go down in the last quarter. The IC is nice for undrilled and bolstering, but mainly to try to get Steppes and avoid LH traffic congestion.
My thought is having up to 2 TCs with the Cataphract 6s in the attack for maximum punch and the last TC can be off supervising a LH wing (might even be tempted to flank march vs. some opponents). Taking a couple BGs of poor Javelin LF would achieve the BG target, but they would otherwise be close to useless. With 17 dice of horse archery on the table I thought adding 6 more average shooting dice with Bw/Sling range could help the attrition side of the battle plan.
The thought on Cataphracts is to have the 4 in the advance have the option to drop back in echelon as flank guard, reserve, or able to switch to the other flank if needed. Not as easy as Drilled, but with the IC giving a +3 to the CMTs I would hope it is doable. Or just stick it in the middle and get the matchups right.
Mike
Maxing Cataphracts is expensive. My Parthian 799 draft list would be only 16 in 3 BGs with 34 LH in 7 BGs and then a Bow and a Sling BG in order to get +4 Initiative after counting the IC. This comes to 12 BGs so the Cats can go down in the last quarter. The IC is nice for undrilled and bolstering, but mainly to try to get Steppes and avoid LH traffic congestion.
My thought is having up to 2 TCs with the Cataphract 6s in the attack for maximum punch and the last TC can be off supervising a LH wing (might even be tempted to flank march vs. some opponents). Taking a couple BGs of poor Javelin LF would achieve the BG target, but they would otherwise be close to useless. With 17 dice of horse archery on the table I thought adding 6 more average shooting dice with Bw/Sling range could help the attrition side of the battle plan.
The thought on Cataphracts is to have the 4 in the advance have the option to drop back in echelon as flank guard, reserve, or able to switch to the other flank if needed. Not as easy as Drilled, but with the IC giving a +3 to the CMTs I would hope it is doable. Or just stick it in the middle and get the matchups right.
Mike
LH have the virtue of easy operation right out of the box and the "Undo" buttons that Skirmishers get to avoid being pinned down. They are also eminently morphable for use in many other armies.spring wrote:Thanks MikeK and all, looks like LH is still the most viable/flexible option when fielding plenty cataphracts then...
Time to paint the stack of unpainted LH
Mike