Operation Sealion Naval units

[kane544]

Just a quick question here. I was looking through the Naval units of this new scenario and found a couple of things that seemed off to me. Are Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau supposed to be Battleships? I thought they were Battlecruisers. Also, should the Graf Zepplin class Carrier the Peter Strasser really be there? It was hardly finished yet. Wouldn't it have made more sense for the Graf Zepplin itself to be in there?

[bebro]

IIRC Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were intended to be battleships when built, but have been labeled battlecruisers repeatedly later.

[captainjack]

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were always described as "Pocket Battleships", rather than Battlecruisers in my father's extensive collection of naval history books and magazines. My understanding is that they were intended as low cost variants of battleships with proper armour and guns, rather than fast and heavily armed but less well armoured battlecruisers.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

The pocket battleships are the Deutschland/Lutzow-class, not Scharnhorst.
Scharnhorst had 11" guns, which for me is the lower limit for a BB. In game there is hardly any difference anyway.

Peter Strasser was an idea rather than an attempted build (unlike Graf Zeppelin and the first 2 H-classes)

- BNC

[kane544]

The Strasser was more than an idea as far as I can see. The only thing about it is it never got an official name before construction was stopped in 1939. I guess with the success Germany sees in Operation Sealion, they are able to launch both of the Graf Zepplin carriers.

[testarossa]

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were always described as "Pocket Battleships", rather than Battlecruisers in my father's extensive collection of naval history books and magazines. My understanding is that they were intended as low cost variants of battleships with proper armour and guns, rather than fast and heavily armed but less well armoured battlecruisers.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were fast (30+knots) lightly armored ships with approaching the same size and punch as a battleship. The Scharnhorst and Gneisneau were analogous to the British Renown, Repulse and Hood. The pocket battleships (Graf Spee, Luztow, etc) were heavily armored cruisers with 11 inch guns that had a much lower speed. The German pocket battleships really didn't have an analog in any other navies. The pocket battleship and the battlecruiser are two quite different type of ships, especially in speed.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

PB's weren't exactly slow. I think you might be confusing the two classes-

PBs were roughly 10,000 tons and ditched most of the armour normally seen on CAs/BBs in exchange for the 11" guns. And how would Graf Spee have gotten to South America if it was so slow?

Scharnhorst however was ~30k tons and had a similar armament to the PBs, but were much more armoured - this is virtually the only reason they could be considered BBs.

- BNC

[testarossa]

30 knots for Scharnhorst/Gneisneau, 28 knots for the PB's. Ok I should have not said much slower, however the PB's operated independently because they could not keep up with the Tirpitz/Bismarck, Scharnhorst/Gneisenau, Hipper/Prince Eugen CAs. BTW speed has nothing at all with getting to South America. That's a matter of range.

In addition the PBs are classified as CAs, not battleships.

[testarossa]

Lutzow, Graf Spee
"Pocket Battleship"
12,630 tons
Main Armament: 6 × 28 cm (11 in) in triple turrets
Armor: main turrets: 140 mm (5.5 in), belt: 80 mm (3.1 in), deck: 45 mm (1.8 in
Speed: 28 knots

Scharnhorst
Battlecruiser
32,100 tons
Main Armament: 9 × 28 cm/54.5 (11 inch) SK C/34[1]
Armor: Main belt: 350 mm (13.78 inch), Deck: 50 mm , Turrets:200 to 360 mm (7.9 to 14.2 in)
Speed: 31 knots

Tirpitz/Bismarck
Battleship
41,000 tons
Main Armament: 8 × 38 cm (15 in) SK C/34 (4 × 2)
Armor: Belt: 320 mm (12.6 in), Turrets: 360 mm (14 in), Main deck: 100 to 120 mm (3.9 to 4.7 in)
Speed: 30+ Knots

Hipper, Prinz Eugen
Heavy Cruiser
17,000 tons
Main Armament: 8 × 20.3 cm (8.0 in) guns,
Armor: Belt: 70 to 80 mm (2.8 to 3.1 in), Armor deck: 20 to 50 mm (0.79 to 1.97 in) , Turret faces: 105 mm (4.1 in)
Speed: 32 knots

Clearly, the PB's are upgunned, slower heavy cruisers, and the battlecruisers are more lightly armed/armored battleships

[BiteNibbleChomp]

30 knots for Scharnhorst/Gneisneau, 28 knots for the PB's. Ok I should have not said much slower, however the PB's operated independently because they could not keep up with the Tirpitz/Bismarck, Scharnhorst/Gneisenau, Hipper/Prince Eugen CAs. BTW speed has nothing at all with getting to South America. That's a matter of range.

In addition the PBs are classified as CAs, not battleships.

My point about Graf Spee was more to indicate that a slow-moving target would have been hunted in the North atlantic or something.

I don't believe I ever said PBs were battleships - I was saying that Scharnhorst was possibly a BB. Though when compared to the IJN Kongo class the Scharnhorst is rubbish for even a battlecruiser

IJN Kongo
Battlecruiser
27,500 tons
Main Armament: 8x14" guns
Armour: 203mm
Speed: 30.5 kn

With this in mind, neither the Deutschland's nor the Scharnhorst's really have a particular group they can fit in to.

- BNC

[captainjack]

Clearly I wasn't taking in enough of the content of those magazines and books!

At least I had the sense not to claim to be a naval expert....

[Horst]

I'm wondering what the German Battlecrusier (has no one noticed that typo yet?) unit in the game is for if you don’t use it for the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. There is still a big difference between 28 and 38 cm guns. Bad design decision in my book, or it was intended thanks to that silly typo.

I agree that only the Graf Zeppelin would have been ready for Sea Lion 40 maybe. More carriers would have been something for Sea Lion 43 and 45. Just keep in mind that it took the Germans up to two years for the their capital ships from launched to commissioned state, while the US managed that in less than half year.

[nikivdd]

The Gibraltar mission allows the player to seize a couple of aircraft carriers from the British Force H

[kane544]

Which is a nice touch, even though those two are the Italian Aquila class boats, or are they British boats converted to Italian ones?

[nikivdd]

Which is a nice touch, even though those two are the Italian Aquila class boats, or are they British boats converted to Italian ones?

Since i was obliged to use what is available in the equipment file, the Italians hoist their flag on the British carrier once the carrier has been seized (not destroyed).

[testarossa]

30 knots for Scharnhorst/Gneisneau, 28 knots for the PB's. Ok I should have not said much slower, however the PB's operated independently because they could not keep up with the Tirpitz/Bismarck, Scharnhorst/Gneisenau, Hipper/Prince Eugen CAs. BTW speed has nothing at all with getting to South America. That's a matter of range.

In addition the PBs are classified as CAs, not battleships.

My point about Graf Spee was more to indicate that a slow-moving target would have been hunted in the North atlantic or something.

I don't believe I ever said PBs were battleships - I was saying that Scharnhorst was possibly a BB. Though when compared to the IJN Kongo class the Scharnhorst is rubbish for even a battlecruiser

IJN Kongo
Battlecruiser
27,500 tons
Main Armament: 8x14" guns
Armour: 203mm
Speed: 30.5 kn

With this in mind, neither the Deutschland's nor the Scharnhorst's really have a particular group they can fit in to.

- BNC

BNC,

We're on the same page. I think the battlecruiser came from the Great War, interwar years when the battleships were considerably slower. Hood, Renown, Repulse are considered battlecruisers. With the advent of fast battleships (KGV class, Bismarck class, etc) I think the battlecruiser became redundant. I only mentioned pocket battleships because in an earlier post someone asked if the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were pocket battleships

BTW agree with you 100% that that the German PB's were utilized in almost exclusively convoy attacks

Good discussion

Best Regards
Frank

[BiteNibbleChomp]

The battlecruiser came from the British a little bit after the time of HMS dreadnaught.

\Good discussion

Indeed

- BNC