Hastati/Princeps and Triari: interpenetration

[diego66ro]

Hi all.
In Storm of Arrows HYW English longbowmen can interpetrate dismounted men-at-arms and billmen, why Roman Hastati/Princeps and Triari cannot ?

Diego

[nikgaukroger]

Hastati and Principes interpenetrate within the BG - as it represents both troops types there is no need for it to be shown explicitly.

[diego66ro]

Hastati and Principes interpenetrate within the BG - as it represents both troops types there is no need for it to be shown explicitly.

Yes, but Triarii cannot.

We could assume that 1 legion is formed by 2 line (aka BG) of Hastati and Princips and 1 line of Triarii: if we want to simulate the interpenetration of the three lines of Hastati, Princeps and Triarii we should permit the interpenetration between the two BG Hastati/Princips and between them and the Triarii's BG.
The advantage of changing two lines is considerable and as discussed in another tread, it's for free (now only for HYW English army); IMO may be would be better to negate the interpenetration for all troops or pay points for it.

Diego

[nikgaukroger]

The advantage of changing two lines is considerable

Not seen it yet in any games so wouldn't know.

[Ninthplain]

Historically, weren't the Triarii used to fill holes or add their strength to an area of the line that was suspect? I beleive they were kneeling behind the Hastati line waiting to see where to help.

The Hastati and Principes were trained to revolve within the battle line as the front man grew tired with the Triarii waiting behind.. IMO, this would not be considered interpenetration.

I always pictured the Triarii as the "Oh crap" troops.

Brian

[nikgaukroger]

One of the main functions of the triarii was to be the last line of defense if everything had gone wrong - the first lines would retreat behind them and the army fall abck on the samp (presumably). They were not, in general, the last offensive line, more defensive.

[Duke68]

Historically, weren't the Triarii used to fill holes or add their strength to an area of the line that was suspect? I beleive they were kneeling behind the Hastati line waiting to see where to help.

The Hastati and Principes were trained to revolve within the battle line as the front man grew tired with the Triarii waiting behind.. IMO, this would not be considered interpenetration.

Brian

Well, nobody really "interpenetrate" a battle line with another battle line apart skirmish troops in loose formation, the confusion arising from that would be awful.

Regarding hastati and princeps (or legionaries in later time) more probably the manipules (or coortes) were deployed in a chessboard-like formation and were trained to shift and close the gap eventually left from the front line collapsing.
Nobody really knows how they manage this thing in real life but if you search an example of battle line interpenetration in history republican roman legion IS the example

Remember that at that time in history they were more or less the only real professional soldier in the world, trained full day to operate with their companion and the legion (if well commanded) could act an react in many ways that other army only dream

PS: triarii were usually reported waiting behind the line of princeps (not hastati) and so they usually formed a third line of defence (or better a fourth line because in front of all were deployed the velites) but maybe some commander used them in other way, nobody can tell us how strictly the "polibian" legion deployment was respected in every fight.

[Quintus]

In my view the lack of interpenetration by triarii goes some way to restraining the abilities of this troop type and helps in the more realistic portrayal of the Roman legion of that time.

Triarii are one of the most overrated troop types in popular wargames rules and FoG is no exception. There is no sound basis for giving them a rating superior to that of the rest of their legion but they always end up with some sort of higher rating. I am not aware of performances on the battlefield that matched their superior status and it appears they were so undistinguished that they may have been left behind guarding the camps at Cannae. Not only that they were eventually done away with as a separate troop type.

Were interpenetration by triarii allowed then they would become super little squads that could dash into the melee when things were going badly. In practice they were only support troops who might be used to form a line of battle late in the engagement.

As things stand in FoG they seem to provide a fairly realistic role in battle, barring the superior status.