Overlaps in non-conformed melee

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lawrenceg
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Overlaps in non-conformed melee

Post by lawrenceg »

Page 76, top for definition of an overlap in a non-conformed combat, i.e. "front corner to front corner and side edge to side edge with a friendly base fighting as if in front edge contact with enemy".

page 87 "Only the ends of a line of bases counting as 'in front edge contact' can be overlapped"

Code: Select all

 AAAABBBBCCCCDDDD
WWWWXXXXyyyy

        YYYY
ABCD are 4 bases of an enemy BG facing down. AB count as in front edge contact so B is the end of the line of bases counting as 'in front edge contact'.
WX are friends of Y, both bases counting as 'in front edge contact' .
YYYY is the initial position, yyyy the controversial final position of Y

From the above, it appears that Y can move as indicated without needing to charge, and would fight as an overlap on B.

Can anyone see any flaws in this reasoning? Would we need to reassign who was fighting whom?
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Post by hammy »

I don't see why you think Y can move into frontal contact. You can move into a possition to fight as an overlap not to fight an existing overlap.
SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet »

I think he must be asking about a situation where the bases can't conform to front edge contact but are angled and touching at a corner - which is treated as being in full front edge contact for combat.

YYYY could then move up in line with XXXX in normal overlap position without touching CCCC - just waving at CCCC over a short distance.

These situations do come up at times, and my logic was that since BBBB and XXXX are treated as if in full frontal contact with one another then it is logically impossible for YYYY to manoeuvre into overlap when CCCC is already lined up in standard overlap on the same side.

Mike
lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg »

Hammy wrote:I don't see why you think Y can move into frontal contact. You can move into a position to fight as an overlap not to fight an existing overlap.



MikeK wrote:I think he must be asking about a situation where the bases can't conform to front edge contact but are angled and touching at a corner - which is treated as being in full front edge contact for combat.

YYYY could then move up in line with XXXX in normal overlap position without touching CCCC - just waving at CCCC over a short distance.

These situations do come up at times, and my logic was that since BBBB and XXXX are treated as if in full frontal contact with one another then it is logically impossible for YYYY to manoeuvre into overlap when CCCC is already lined up in standard overlap on the same side.

Mike


IMO according to the letter of the rule, Y can move to yyyy as this meets the definition of overlap on p76 and you are permitted to move into overlap. It wouldn't actually fight as an overlap because yyyy and CCCC would count as in front edge contact. There is no explicit prohibition on moving into frontal combat (whether there is physical contact or not), is there? If there is, where is it?

Mike clearly thinks you can do it if there is no physical contact. In that case, he seems to be saying that Y and C would not fight each other, which implies they do not count as in front edge contact and that Y would overlap B and C would overlap X, even though he says this is illogical. I also note that neither B nor X have an open flank to be overlapped, but they are both "at the end of a line of bases counting as in front edge contact" and therefore allowed to be overlapped according to the wording on p87. I think there is something not quite right here. It makes more sense if Y and C fight each other frontally.
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Post by SirGarnet »

lawrenceg wrote: I think there is something not quite right here. It makes more sense if Y and C fight each other frontally.
Actually I was heading towards saying it can't move into the overlap position even though physically it appears possible because you can't have opposing overlaps on the same flank and they can't fight frontally until there's a fresh charge.

This gets us to the same tactical result as if the bases were all tidily conformed. This seems to me to be the right benchmark for resolving conforming issues.
lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg »

lawrenceg wrote: There is no explicit prohibition on moving into frontal combat (whether there is physical contact or not), is there? If there is, where is it?

OK, I think I've found it in the errata for P75
FoG-Errata-V1.10.pdf wrote:It should read: “Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre
phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position only.”
(my italics)

I think that second "only" implies that you cannot move into an overlap position if it is also another kind of position, e.g. a frontal contact position.

Given that there is no definition of any other kind of position, this correction is still a little unclear. I'd like to see it changed to something like:
Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre
phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position in which its front edge will not be (nor count as) in contact with enemy .
This takes more space, but this should not be an issue in the errata document. In the next edition of the rules, if space is a problem I think we could afford to lose the Tip! on page 76 as it is a bit of a no-brainer.

I also note that the original wording quoted in the errata document is not what the rule book actually says (the last "only" is not in the book), so that could do with a tidy up in the next errata issue.
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Post by rogerg »

This discussion seems to be missing the point. The word 'overlap' has a meaning of its own. A base in overlap is overlapping a combat. The rule definitions of 'overlap position' do not override the meaning of the word itself. A base in frontal contact might fulfill the definitions of an 'overlap position' with regard to corners and edges but that does not make it an overlap.

Bases that cannot conform fight as if they had conformed. The rule intention is clear. We have had no difficulty with deciding overlap options. Look at the non-conformed combat as if it had conformed. If there is then a position where a base could physically be put into overlap, then an overlap is possible, otherwise it isn't.
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Post by rbodleyscott »

lawrenceg wrote:I also note that the original wording quoted in the errata document is not what the rule book actually says (the last "only" is not in the book), so that could do with a tidy up in the next errata issue.
Ah, I had not noticed that. Unfortunately the publisher's editor tried to "improve" on the wording of that sentence in the final draft, which we failed to notice in the final proof-reading, hence the need for the erratum. I had not noticed that the "only" at the end of the sentence had also been removed. As Lawrence has pointed out, it is, of course, vital to the meaning.
Last edited by rbodleyscott on Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SirGarnet »

So it is correct that it can only move thus to fight as an overlap and not just to an overlap position?

There is an important difference, since the last overlap position bullet on p 76 allows the the Y movement desired to the overlap position described (it doesn't exclude the move if the friendly base counting fighting frontally is already overlapped on this side), but for the reasons discussed it can't fight as an overlap once there.
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Post by rbodleyscott »

MikeK wrote:So it is correct that it can only move thus to fight as an overlap and not just to an overlap position?
Yes.

I doubt if the question would have arisen at all if the "only" at the end of the sentence had been present in the printed rule book. (As intended by the authors).
lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg »

rogerg wrote:This discussion seems to be missing the point. The word 'overlap' has a meaning of its own. A base in overlap is overlapping a combat. The rule definitions of 'overlap position' do not override the meaning of the word itself. A base in frontal contact might fulfill the definitions of an 'overlap position' with regard to corners and edges but that does not make it an overlap.

Bases that cannot conform fight as if they had conformed. The rule intention is clear. We have had no difficulty with deciding overlap options. Look at the non-conformed combat as if it had conformed. If there is then a position where a base could physically be put into overlap, then an overlap is possible, otherwise it isn't.
Clear to you, but apparently not clear to one of our opponents at the weekend who insisted on doing it by the letter of the rulebook, which none of us had got around to putting the errata in.

IMO, the "intention" is "clear" to anyone who knows what an overlap is from DBM, but the wording in the book is also clear and says something different. Specifically, you can move to an "overlap position", "overlap position" is defined. The criteria for fighting as an "overlap" are also defined and being in an overlap position is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to actually fight as an overlap.

IMO definitions in the rules do override the normal meaning of words. But when I play against you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and all my battlegroups will be battalion-sized units of late 20th century tanks and mechanised infantry with supporting arms. As, I assume, yours are.
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rogerg
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Post by rogerg »

The serious side of this issue is that we do not want to be overburdened with clarifications to the extent that we struggle to locate what we are looking to clarify. Your contribution to tracking down the precise wording is very welcome. If I recall correctly, you have made other useful contributions of this type.

This particular item had the whiff of someone trying to pull a fast one and get an overlap where the majority of us would not have tried it on. Maybe it was a fair interpretation and my suspicions have no foundation. However, occasionally one meets players who try this sort of thing. It would be a pity to have lots of legislation to deal with it. Usually the 'common law' of the majority decision is sufficient to solve the problem. This keeps the written clarifications limited to more common misinterpretations. That said, it is only by this sort of discussion we can sort out one from the other.
lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg »

rogerg wrote:The serious side of this issue is that we do not want to be overburdened with clarifications to the extent that we struggle to locate what we are looking to clarify. Your contribution to tracking down the precise wording is very welcome. If I recall correctly, you have made other useful contributions of this type.

This particular item had the whiff of someone trying to pull a fast one and get an overlap where the majority of us would not have tried it on. Maybe it was a fair interpretation and my suspicions have no foundation. However, occasionally one meets players who try this sort of thing. It would be a pity to have lots of legislation to deal with it. Usually the 'common law' of the majority decision is sufficient to solve the problem. This keeps the written clarifications limited to more common misinterpretations. That said, it is only by this sort of discussion we can sort out one from the other.
In this case it's a correction to a publisher's copy-editing error, not a clarification.

There are complete beginners who have to work things out from what the rules actually say, there are people who try it on by deliberately postulating unusual interpretations, and there are cases where people "try it on without knowing that they are trying it on". By this I mean when the pressure is starting to mount, and they strongly anticipate generally being able to do something useful with their troops, they interpret rules in such a way that they are consistent with their anticipated optimistic outcome. If they are expecting the game to follow a particular course, and it doesn't follow that course, the internal, unconscious thought process is along the lines of "this can't be right, the correct interpretation of the rules must allow me to make it right". I think my opponent fell into the last category - they had moved up reserves just before I charged into a very complicated geometrical situation (non conformed). They anticipated that the reserves must be able to intervene somehow, checked the rules and " :idea: of course, I can move into this overlap position", which in practice brought them into "counting as if in frontal contact" with what would have been my overlapping base. However, I couldn't fault his interpretation because the text in the book was not as the authors intended. If we had inserted the errata I would have been able to argue the case. If the errata had been as explicit as I suggested it would have been clear that the move was not allowed.

IMO text has to say obviously exactly what the author means so that someone with no prior knowlege, a marginal pass of GCSE English and a degree of self-doubt will "get it" and as a side-effect a semi-experienced player skim-reading in the heat of battle and a rules lawyer should get it too. The team has done a good job of this on the whole. It is only now with large numbers of players playing socially and in tournaments that a few imperfections are coming to light and this one at least was due to over-zealous copy-editing by the publisher.

Another example is the evade from combat thread. The rules said "can choose to evade unless already in close combat...". What they meant was "can evade unless already in close combat... Evading is optional ..."

It is very difficult to get this right all the time as an author because you always know what you meant, especially when you have been over it 20 times.
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Post by rogerg »

Agreed. That's a very nice description of the 'emotional situation' that occurs in wargames too.
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