Dark Ages - Picts

hughdc · Post by **hughdc** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:44 pm

Hi

Some time ago in the discussion pages there was a request for suggestions for Dark Age armies, and here are mine with regards to Britain, and in Particular Pictish which I have spent some years looking at.

General points are that there is little evidence for levels of armour in the period in Britain at all and what pictorial evidence is available suggest Kings had and not many others. All the Northumbrian figures in the Aberlermo stone are usually taken to represent Ecgfrith (charging, running away on a Pictish horse and dead). Early Vikings were no different in this aspect either, and armour level would increase over the period.

While Picts had bows and crossbows the only possible representation of them in warfare is Sueno’s stone which is very late. Axes were probably used as well as they were readily available.

Returning to the Aberlermo Stone, the Pictish infantry are advancing downhill not stationary so are the formation is not defensive. As in other stones and from archaeological evidence Picts had swords, possibly all rode to war (warfare was an elitist sport) and some fought on horseback. I like the break off cavalry move in FofG – I think it represents exactly what would happen. (I actually came to a have a similar mechanism independently in my own Dark Age Rules.)

My thoughts are along the lines of as follows – I must stress I am no expert on FofG but if I wait till I am your Dark Age list will be published (perhaps they are finalised already).

The main foot (3/4/BGs, 6/8 elements) would be Average, Medium, Protected, Offensive Spearmen, undrilled. The armour could go up a level in the later period. Alternatively, if the games mechanisms allow it, a front rank with of better armour than that of the rear. Armour level should be in line with opponents.

I BG (elements) of average light foot javelins, undrilled, and similar one with Bow/Crossbows.

Cavalry 1 or 2 BGs (4 elements) elite cavalry javelin, swords protected or armoured undrilled. And 2BGs (4 elements) of average light horse protected with javelins. The cavalry could dismount as superior infantry but must be paid for as cavalry. (Would highly trained swordsmen of this period be Skilled, as that was all they did?)

The difficulty with this period is that any Dark Age army could only have their elite forces present at one battle e.g.’ the Northumbrian’s act Nechtansmere or few if any if Picts under a sudden Viking attack. I am not sure how you deal with that in the lists. Possibly all of the armies could have a horde of inferior medium infantry armed with improvised weapons possibly defensive spearmen.

Sorry this has developed into a major rant – hope you find it of interest.

Regards

Hugh Coleman

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:18 pm

Early Pictish (to end of the 5th C) are in Companion 5, Legions Triumphant, and not far from what you describe. The basic Spearmen are unprotected, but there are some others that have armour.

hughdc · Post by **hughdc** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:27 pm

Yes I was aware if that, but what I suggest is that ncommon with others Pictish armour levels would increase as time passes.

Hugh

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:04 pm

Early Pictish suggests a Late Pictish list as well, probably in "Wolves from the Sea" next year, which leaves room for corrections, so I'm sure any evidence you offer is taken in account.

hughdc · Post by **hughdc** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:45 pm

Hi

As Dicaledonians are referred to as Picts by Roman writers and Historians now widely accept that Caledonians became Picts it is surprising to see Caledonians as an option as a separate people in the list. Following from this it is strange that the Caledonians suddenly tore off their clothes when they became Picts. Stones in Scotland showing naked warriors are from a much earlier period or show ritualistic fights. It seems the DBM misconceptions are being carried forward which is disappointing, I hope the Dark Age book is better.

regards

Hugh

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:57 am

MikeK wrote:Early Pictish suggests a Late Pictish list as well, probably in "Wolves from the Sea" next year, which leaves room for corrections, so I'm sure any evidence you offer is taken in account.

The bad news is that it is now a touch late for changes to Wolves from the Sea, production schedules being what they are.

The good news is that the list is pretty close to the one suggested.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:19 am

Who mentioned Caledones "tearing off their clothes" when becoming Picts?

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:21 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Who mentioned Caledones "tearing off their clothes" when becoming Picts?

Perhaps we should have a poll on which Caledonians we would like to see tearing off their clothes.

hughdc · Post by **hughdc** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:06 pm

Well not Gordon Ramsay anyway.