OOB Pacific: Weak AA, Weak subs?

[GottaLove88s]

Hi gents, I'm new to OOB Pacific, jumping in at the deep end with Erik's totally awesome Coral Sea MP scenario. If you like your war-games strategic, with gorgeous true to history maps, you're gonna love Erik's work. The man is a genius. Take a look here viewtopic.php?f=374&t=64991 if you want to see the proof!

I'm trying to figure my way around, but please could an OOB vet help me with a few questions...

1. Anti aircraft (AA) guns carried on CL and CA cruisers don't seem to do much. I've had anything from three to six CL and CA cruisers 1-2 spaces away from pretty much every kind of Allied 'plane (P40s, Lightnings, B17, B20, B25, B26). OOB displays the response fire animation, when an enemy bomber attacks one of my ships, with gorgeous ack ack rising up from the 2 or 3 nearest cruisers. But I've NEVER scored even a -1 damage on ANY fighter or bomber. No matter how big, how slow, or how surrounded it is by my cruisers. The only way to hurt enemy aircraft seems to be with fighters or land based AA (both of which are highly effective). Is this correct? Or have I missed a better technique for cruiser AA?

2. Submarines seem designed to secretly spot stuff rather than to do any damage. Subs are slow, surfaced or submerged (ok, I admit that's accurate). But sub torpedoes are next to useless. I can put a sub right next to a carrier, cruiser or destroyer, point its bow right at the target (in the adjacent hex), and still get max 0 to 2 points of damage. Then it takes 3-4 turns to reload a new torp (which would have Karl Doenitz turning in his grave, given it takes a B17 the same number of turns to fly from the Great Barrier Reef to Port Moresby) before the sub can fire a 2nd torpedo. By which time, its targets are all out of range. So an OOB Pacific sub is a one shot affair, which might scratch but will never sink a target? Or is there a better way to use these?

3. Active pinging from destroyers. I was hunting an enemy sub, which I knew was there because it hit one of my transports (causing the usual 2 points itch of damage). So I actively pinged but couldn't see it. I didn't believe that, so I actively pinged with another destroyer which showed up the enemy sub. It was right next to my first destroyer. Is the result of active pinging partly randomised, ie. it won't always reveal a hidden sub? If that's true, do real life sub tactics work? If a sub 'runs silent, runs deep', ie. basically doesn't move during its turn, is it less likely to be revealed by sonar? Or is the result of active pinging just random?

I guess I better explain myself. I've played Slitherine's BA and BA2, and messed around with amphibious mods for the original Battle Academy (in Dieppe'42 viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347 and Guadalcanal viewtopic.php?f=87&t=41434, collaborating with the uber resourceful Amaris). Hence all of my daft questions... OOB Pacific looks awesome... and Erik's MP scenarios are The Business...!!

[b52pilot1]

Preach on, brother!

I don't have too much heartburn with the AA weakness, but agree 100% that subs are useless...and I have no idea why destroyers sometimes detect subs, and sometimes they don't.

Overall, this is an awesome game, but it can be improved slightly with a few tweaks.

[adherbal]

1) Naval AA damage output decreases the further you move. This encourages you to anticipate the area where enemy aircraft will fly through rather than "give chase" to enemy aircraft. US aircaft are also fairly robust, particularly strategic bombers are hard to damage with ships.

2) Subs probably need a damage boost. Note that firing a torpedo against a target which moved in the previous turn results in less damage.

3) Sonar range is 2 hexes. Subs will only be detected if they have fired or moved in the previous turn. If they stay still you can only detect them ordering a ship to move to their hex.

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Adherbal! That's really helpful.

1) Naval AA damage output decreases the further you move. This encourages you to anticipate the area where enemy aircraft will fly through rather than "give chase" to enemy aircraft. US aircaft are also fairly robust, particularly strategic bombers are hard to damage with ships.

The concept that a stopped/slow cruiser enjoys more accurate AA than one that's moved makes a lot of sense. I'm still not sure it's working though? In a recent Coral Sea MP game, I had about five cruisers, mix of CA and CL, stopped in a bay, only 1-2 hexes from where my infantry landings were happening. The bombers didn't get a scratch, in automatic reaction fire, or when I fired during my own turns. This makes sense vs B17s, which flew high, maybe even out of range of naval AA, but the Beauforts, B25s and B26s were low level and should at least get scratched, no? Btw the reaction fire animation shows DD's firing against enemy bombers attacking my naval/land units but they're even less likely (ie. never) damage the bomber. Did DD's have an AA function in an earlier version of the game, that got removed later?

Does OOB use the same mechanics for ship-to-ship gunnery? If I move less distance, my shots should be more accurate?

2) Subs probably need a damage boost. Note that firing a torpedo against a target which moved in the previous turn results in less damage.

Reduced torpedo accuracy versus moving targets feels realistic. But a sub in a neighbouring hex, with a full on broadside view, should be able to damage something big, like a carrier, BB or CA, with a typical spread of torps. I'm not sure how the calculations work, but am guessing there's something like a 'power' factor and an 'accuracy' factor, plus some randomisation? So in an ideal simulation, sub vs carrier should have a high damage power (it's a torpedo after all) + high accuracy (how could you miss?) but even with a hit would only cause limited damage, say 1-4 hits of 10 hit points. But sub vs destroyer should have the same high damage power (same torpedo) but much lower accuracy (these buggers were small and fast), so it should either cause no damage (more likely to miss than hit) or kill the darned thing outright (if you're very well positioned, the DD is stopped or slow, and you're feeling lucky). If a torp hit a destroyer in WW2, it was toast. Is there a unit stats spreadsheet hidden in OOB somewhere, where we could experiment with stuff like that?

Or is there a mod that gives subs 'spreads' of torpedoes, say 3 shots instead of 1, before having to wait the 3-4 turns to reload?

3) Sonar range is 2 hexes. Subs will only be detected if they have fired or moved in the previous turn. If they stay still you can only detect them ordering a ship to move to their hex.

Cool! So 'silent running' works? If I don't move, I can't be seen, except by a destroyer that 'accidentally' drives over me? That's great for sub skippers and I'll definitely use it. What about the following scenario? If an enemy sub has fired at my carrier and damaged it, I've found it on sonar with my destroyer, and dropped depth charges. There's another destroyer that's 3 squares away, not 2. Is there anyway that 2nd destroyer can join in the hunt? It won't see the sub on sonar, because it's 1 square too far.

Great work guys. OOB Pacific is a really well designed sim! Gorgeous, complex enough, but fabulously playable...

[adherbal]

Does OOB use the same mechanics for ship-to-ship gunnery? If I move less distance, my shots should be more accurate?

Sort of. For ships, damage output decrease if you change the distance between your ship and the target. So if after the move your ship is closer or further away from a specific target it will deal less damage. If you move "paralel" to the target then damage output doesn't change. This represents that moving sideways allows your ship to keep all guns firing at the enemy during the movement.

When you use the mechanic effectively you can reposition ships to take less damage during the enemy turn or move into a better firing position for the next turn while still dealing maximum damage against a specific target.

Or is there a mod that gives subs 'spreads' of torpedoes, say 3 shots instead of 1, before having to wait the 3-4 turns to reload?

No, at the moment you can only alter torpedo damage, range and cooldown time.

If an enemy sub has fired at my carrier and damaged it, I've found it on sonar with my destroyer, and dropped depth charges. There's another destroyer that's 3 squares away, not 2. Is there anyway that 2nd destroyer can join in the hunt? It won't see the sub on sonar, because it's 1 square too far.

The second destroyer will have to wait until the next turn. Once more than 1 DD is hunting a sub its chances of survival are very slim anyway. The first DD can ping the sonar and if nothing is found the second DD can attempt to move to the sub's last known position to see if it's still hiding there. If it is, an automatic depth charge attack will be launched.

[KeinGeneral]

If an enemy sub has fired at my carrier and damaged it, I've found it on sonar with my destroyer, and dropped depth charges. There's another destroyer that's 3 squares away, not 2. Is there anyway that 2nd destroyer can join in the hunt? It won't see the sub on sonar, because it's 1 square too far.

The second destroyer will have to wait until the next turn. Once more than 1 DD is hunting a sub its chances of survival are very slim anyway. The first DD can ping the sonar and if nothing is found the second DD can attempt to move to the sub's last known position to see if it's still hiding there. If it is, an automatic depth charge attack will be launched.

rather Adherbal what is told here for nonsense?
Sonar works on the motto, ping is sent and as long as no metal is made is there for the destroyer, not a submarine near.
In contrast, when met on the metal of the submarine a ping, this was immediately reflected and the destroyer crew knows where it is located submarine. which is today as it was then.
because I have this topic already addressed, then the proposal has been made, the dormant submarines can only be tracked via sonar, when you stand next to it dierekt. why has this not been implemented?
Here would be an urgent need to catch up !!

[CV6]

Wow, I had no idea about the "silent running" dynamic--that is a great addition! And it also completely explains some of my frustrations in hunting enemy subs.

Regarding the damage that submarines inflict during combat, it makes sense to me that if their intended target has moved during the previous turn that the damage would be reduced--but only in some situations. If the target turned in its turn or perhaps if it moved and the sub also moved, those combinations of events in real life would most likely have negative impacts on the accuracy of the torpedoes.

However, if the sub was stationary and if the target moved into the sub's range--especially if the target hadn't turned--that would probably make for a really good firing solution for the sub and maybe that type of scenario should be rewarded with a boost to the damage from the torpedo attack.


I didn't see any mention of it in this thread, but are there any damage bonuses (or penalties) for the angle of the torpedo attack on the target? For example, straight on bow shots and straight on stern shots weren't usually considered as ideal as shots from the front quarters and broadsides.

Considering how few attack opportunities that subs get in the game, would it make sense to give them a greater amount of experience points per successful attack? I can't say that I've used them a lot, but it seems very difficult to get a sub to an "elite" status in the single player game with the current point system. If, however, I thought I could do it and if I knew that veteran sub crew would inflict more damage or be less detectable, I would definitely think about using subs more often.

As for AA fire, as much as I get frustrated by low damage against opposing aircraft, AA fire wasn't all that accurate during WWII. It got better as the war went on (for a few different reason), but as an example of how poor it could be, in a book I read last year, some historians believe that Japanese AA fire at the Battle of Midway may have only accounted for one American aircraft loss the entire day. The Japanese had invested a lot of effort in their gun direction system but the technology was still very new and was not always effective.

[CV6]

Two other thoughts about subs, and please forgive me if someone else has brought them up previously. First, what about a deck gun for classes of subs that carried them historically? Against merchant ships/transports, it could allow the sub to do something useful while the tubes are being reloaded; deck guns vs. warships would be pretty much suicidal. The gun could probably be used for shore bombardment at short ranges, although the damage would be/should be small.

Second, to further increase the utility of subs, what about allowing them to carry a commando-type unit, such as Marine Raiders so that they could be put ashore behind enemy lines? Although subs did participate in missions like that, the size of a Marine Raider unit was probably more than one sub could carry--so this idea admittedly is a bit sketchy.

[GottaLove88s]

Wow, I had no idea about the "silent running" dynamic--that is a great addition! And it also completely explains some of my frustrations in hunting enemy subs.

Yeah, I know, disappearing enemy subs was driving me nuts (probably like real DD skippers) so it was sanity saving to understand this dynamic. It's cool when you're commanding the sub tho.

However, if the sub was stationary and if the target moved into the sub's range--especially if the target hadn't turned--that would probably make for a really good firing solution for the sub and maybe that type of scenario should be rewarded with a boost to the damage from the torpedo attack.

I didn't see any mention of it in this thread, but are there any damage bonuses (or penalties) for the angle of the torpedo attack on the target? For example, straight on bow shots and straight on stern shots weren't usually considered as ideal as shots from the front quarters and broadsides.

I'm not sure if torp attacks are different from naval gunnery. Gunnery seems to calculate something like Kill value = Power of gun x Distance from target (ideal being 1/3 of max range) x Not changing that distance (the logic being if you move towards/away from your target you can't use all of your guns in a broadside).

I'm still trying to figure out how torps work, but it does feel like I get a better kill value if I can position the sub/torp bomber side on. Massive target as a broadside. Which makes sense. What I don't understand is that sometimes I can put the sub side on facing a stationary light cruiser and get a predicted (and actual) kill value of zero. Single torps that actually hit destroyers (or CLs) should probably cause a LOT of damage (or even sink them). The trick would be to include an Accuracy Factor, that includes angle of attack, size of target, speed of target (squares moved last turn), type of torpedo (newer torps should be more accurate), etc... So your chance of hitting a DD would be low (small size, generally fast... unless it's stopped for shore bombardment, then it should be easy pickings! ) but if you hit it, sayonara!!

Considering how few attack opportunities that subs get in the game, would it make sense to give them a greater amount of experience points per successful attack? I can't say that I've used them a lot, but it seems very difficult to get a sub to an "elite" status in the single player game with the current point system. If, however, I thought I could do it and if I knew that veteran sub crew would inflict more damage or be less detectable, I would definitely think about using subs more often.

Nice idea! So far I guess I get 60% of my naval kills with bombers, 30% ship-to-ship and <10% with subs or mines. So aircraft get very experienced very quickly. From zero to three stars in one game. Maybe bombers (dive and torp type) should have to return to carriers to re-arm after two attacks? Otherwise they can just sit there and drop bombs turn after turn (scoring 2-3 points of damage per bomb, versus less than 2 points of damage for a torpedo hit from a submarine, which then needs 4 turns to reload).

It would be neat for subs to become more experienced more quickly... Or maybe for subs to be able to fire more than one torpedo in the same time a dive bomber can drop 5 sets of bombs (and probably kill the target outright)... After all, in five turns I can fly a B17 from Brisbane to Port Moresby in the Coral Sea scenario (and I'd really hope a Gato skipper could reload more than one torp in that time )

Second, to further increase the utility of subs, what about allowing them to carry a commando-type unit, such as Marine Raiders so that they could be put ashore behind enemy lines? Although subs did participate in missions like that, the size of a Marine Raider unit was probably more than one sub could carry--so this idea admittedly is a bit sketchy.

OH YEAH!! Love this idea. Can subs be adapted to carry commando units... eg. Teishi Dan/SNLF, USMC, Royal Marines???