Wheeling a battle line when it is a column of BGs

[hammy]

If a battle line made up of a column of battlegroups wheels what happens?

AA
AA
BB
BB

My thought is that as it is not a single base wide column the group retains it's shape and that because no battlegroup in a battle line can exceed it's normal move that the total move is limited by the distance covered by the last BG in the column. So if the formation above wheels right the total wheel is limited by the distance moved out and left by BG B.

[terrys]

So if the formation above wheels right the total wheel is limited by the distance moved out and left by BG B.

The rule for wheels states
A) For ease of measuring, the distance moved during the wheel is taken as the
straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner.
B) If wheeling a battle line, no battle group can exceed the full move distance of the slowest
battle group in the battle line.

So Hammy is correct. Total movement is restricted by the distance moved by the front corners of each BG.

[sagji]

I don't think he is - the rule says "... the straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner."
The moving front corner in this case is the front corner of A - if B was wider than A then it would also have a front corner.

[terrys]

I don't think he is - the rule says "... the straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner."
The moving front corner in this case is the front corner of A - if B was wider than A then it would also have a front corner.

What about the following rule in the section on wheeling?

If wheeling a battle line, no battle group can
exceed the full move distance of the slowest
battle group in the battle line.

Note that it says 'battle group' NOT 'battle line'

[sagji]

That is an independant factor - the rule I quoted determines how you determine how far the BL has moved, your rule covers how far it can move.

If A is LF and B is HF then by my reading the max wheel is 3 MU measured from the front outer corner of A, by Hammy's reading it is 3 MU measured from the rear outer corner of A.

Consider another example

1PPHH2
PPPHHH
PPPhh3
PPPhhh

P & 1 is a BG of 12 Swiss pike, H & 2 and h & 3 are BGs of 6 Swiss halberdiers.

By Hammy's reading this will have different maximum wheels to left and right because the limiting corners are 1 and 3. By my reading it will wheel the same in each direction as the limiting corners are 1 and 2.

[terrys]

Sagji

1PPHH2
PPPHHH
PPP4h3
PPPhhh

There are 2 distances that are relevent, and both must be met:
a) The distance of the wheel by the battle LINE is measured from the outside corner of the front edge of the battle LINE.
In the example this will be the distance moved by bases 1 or 2 depending upon whether you're wheeling to the right or the left.
b) No battle GROUP can exceed the move distance of the slowest battle group in the battle LINE.
In the example no front corner of any of the 3 battlegroups can exceed 3MUs.
In other words, it will be able to wheel to the left slightly less than it can wheel to the right.
(this restriction being the distance moved by bases 3 & 4)

The difference is marginal, and this is a fairly unusual formation.

[sagji]

Where do the rules say how the move of h is measured - while h is participating in a wheel of the battle line it is not itself performing a legal wheel (it has no stationary corner) so the rule for measuring a wheel doesn't apply.

Don't you think it is odd that a rectangular formation entirely of heavy foot can wheel more in one direction than the other?


P.S. 4 will never be a limiting corner as when wheeling about 2 1 is the limiting corner - it is the furtherest front corner from the stationary corner.

[terrys]

Where do the rules say how the move of h is measured - while h is participating in a wheel of the battle line it is not itself performing a legal wheel (it has no stationary corner) so the rule for measuring a wheel doesn't apply.

When measuring the wheel of a battle-LINE as you say - you only measure the front corners. - rule (a)

When measuring to see if you've exceeded you move distance you measure the front corner of each
battle-GROUP - rule(b)

[sagji]

When measuring to see if you've exceeded you move distance you measure the front corner of each
battle-GROUP - rule(b)

What page are you quoting this from? Rule b is not in the rule book, and renders the rule on how you measure the wheel of a battle line meaningless as "rule b" will allways be the limiting factor.

[batesmotel]

So if the formation above wheels right the total wheel is limited by the distance moved out and left by BG B.

The rule for wheels states
A) For ease of measuring, the distance moved during the wheel is taken as the
straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner.
B) If wheeling a battle line, no battle group can exceed the full move distance of the slowest
battle group in the battle line.

So Hammy is correct. Total movement is restricted by the distance moved by the front corners of each BG.

My reading of rules A) and B) for the example in Hammy's post would be that the distance moved is the amount wheeled by the front corner of A, and the maximum distance this could be would be the lesser of the maximum moves of A or B if they have different movement rates.

It seems like the whole point of Rule A was to avoid question about how far back corners moved for a unit or a battle line that is wheeling.This seems one of the compromises between absolute accuracy and playability for which FoG is noteworthy in choosing to err on the side of playability. Much better than DBx rules which end up having special rule exceptions for whether an element can move from overlap to flank contact, or debates about the geometry of distance moved in the case of 15mm scale versus 25mm.

[hammy]

The problem with not restircting the move of battlegroups (not bases) furthr back in a column of battlegroups is that if you have for example a column of 4 BGs of cavalry each 2 bases wide and 2 deep then by wheeling 5 MU the rear BG of the column will move more than 12 MU as the rear of the column swings out. If this was allowed people would abuse it, hence I am very happy that Terry agrees with my interpretation.

We are talking about an unusual situation and not one I have ever seen. The reason I posted it is that I was called the other evening by a friend who was in the middle of a game where this had occured and he wanted to know how to handle the situation.

[terrys]

What page are you quoting this from? Rule b is not in the rule book, and renders the rule on how you measure the wheel of a battle line meaningless as "rule b" will allways be the limiting factor.

'rule b' MAY be the limiting factor depending on whether or not your battle line has 2 BG's behind each other, and that the 2nd BG is not faster than the front one. In most cases this rule will not be relevent.

The rule I'm quoting is:
"If wheeling a battle line, no battle group can
exceed the full move distance of the slowest
battle group in the battle line."

It should be the very last paragraph under the section on Wheeling.

I am, however, quoting from a copy of the final master as sent to the publishers, and not from the actual rule book. (They should both be the same).
Can someone check the rulebook to see if this paragraph actually exists?

[peterrjohnston]

That's what it says.

The advantage of working at home today

[terrys]

That's what it says.

That's a relief - I was begining to wonder.......

[peterrjohnston]

Damn, missed an opportunity to play with your mind

[sagji]

What page are you quoting this from? Rule b is not in the rule book, and renders the rule on how you measure the wheel of a battle line meaningless as "rule b" will allways be the limiting factor.

'rule b' MAY be the limiting factor depending on whether or not your battle line has 2 BG's behind each other, and that the 2nd BG is not faster than the front one. In most cases this rule will not be relevent.

By "rule b will allways be the limiting factor" I mean there is no situation were rule a imposes a limit that is LESS than that of rule b.

The rule I'm quoting is:
"If wheeling a battle line, no battle group can
exceed the full move distance of the slowest
battle group in the battle line."

The rule b I was referring to was the one you defined in the quote below, not your previous rule b.

When measuring the wheel of a battle-LINE as you say - you only measure the front corners. - rule (a)

When measuring to see if you've exceeded you move distance you measure the front corner of each
battle-GROUP - rule(b)

Where in the rule book is this rule(b) defined? Specifically where is it defined how you measure the distance a BG has moved - the only such rule is rule(a) which refers to the front of the BL not the front of the BG.
I think there is a problem in the rules as one part defines how far a battle line can move and the other defines a constraint in terms of how far each battle group can move. Which means you have to use an implicit rule - either i) that every BG has moved as far as the BL has moved, or ii) that each BG has moved its own distance, in which case you then need another rule specifying how that distance is measured.

I think i) can be taken as a clarification, but to apply ii) needs an erratum.

[lawrenceg]

When measuring the wheel of a battle-LINE as you say - you only measure the front corners. - rule (a)

When measuring to see if you've exceeded you move distance you measure the front corner of each
battle-GROUP - rule(b)

Where in the rule book is this rule(b) defined? Specifically where is it defined how you measure the distance a BG has moved - the only such rule is rule(a) which refers to the front of the BL not the front of the BG.
I think there is a problem in the rules as one part defines how far a battle line can move and the other defines a constraint in terms of how far each battle group can move. Which means you have to use an implicit rule - either i) that every BG has moved as far as the BL has moved, or ii) that each BG has moved its own distance, in which case you then need another rule specifying how that distance is measured.

I think i) can be taken as a clarification, but to apply ii) needs an erratum.

a. is at the bottom of p43 (left hand side)
b. is at the top of p 44 (right hand side)

The wheeling diagram could be considered in error as it only shows the distances moved by some of the BGs as needing to be measured, not all of them. However, it is obvious that only the two distances shown have a possibility of being the longest distance moved by any BG.

IMO the minimum clarification is that rule (a) applies to all moving front corners of BGs, not just the moving front corner of the BL.

It cannot be interpreted as meaning only the one moving front corner of the BL because the diagram shows two corners being measured.

[sagji]

When measuring the wheel of a battle-LINE as you say - you only measure the front corners. - rule (a)

When measuring to see if you've exceeded you move distance you measure the front corner of each
battle-GROUP - rule(b)

Where in the rule book is this rule(b) defined? Specifically where is it defined how you measure the distance a BG has moved - the only such rule is rule(a) which refers to the front of the BL not the front of the BG.
I think there is a problem in the rules as one part defines how far a battle line can move and the other defines a constraint in terms of how far each battle group can move. Which means you have to use an implicit rule - either i) that every BG has moved as far as the BL has moved, or ii) that each BG has moved its own distance, in which case you then need another rule specifying how that distance is measured.

I think i) can be taken as a clarification, but to apply ii) needs an erratum.

a. is at the bottom of p43 (left hand side)
b. is at the top of p 44 (right hand side)

No the rule on the top right of page 44 is the other rule b

The wheeling diagram could be considered in error as it only shows the distances moved by some of the BGs as needing to be measured, not all of them. However, it is obvious that only the two distances shown have a possibility of being the longest distance moved by any BG.

IMO the minimum clarification is that rule (a) applies to all moving front corners of BGs, not just the moving front corner of the BL.

No because that requires a change to the wording of "rule a" so is an errata not a clarification. Whereas that every BG has moved the distance defined by "rule a" could be a rule so obvious that it was ommited.

It cannot be interpreted as meaning only the one moving front corner of the BL because the diagram shows two corners being measured.

It can however be interpertated as only the moving front corner of the BL as both measured corners are front corners.

The diagram is only incorrect if
a) You use terrys' rule(b) extension to the rule on p44; AND
b) There is a rear BG - if the HF is say 4 2x2 BGs rather than a 2x8 BG and an 8x2 BG.

It could be argued diagram supports my position as for the measurement to the LF to be the limiting distance would require that the LF be 8 ranks deep, but for neither to be the limiting distance would happen if the left most file is from 2, or more, BGs. Also it doesn't show measurment for the move of the MF or the inner HF which is required by the extended rule(b) - though it should be obvious that these won't be the limiting factor.

[lawrenceg]

Well, it is clear from this topic that what the authors intended was:

1. A wheel is a rotation about a front outside corner of the BG/BL

2. No front corner of a BG can move further than
a) the BG speed if it is a single BG move
b)the speed of the slowest BG in the BL if it is a BL move

3. The distance moved during the wheel by each front corner is measured as straight line distance, not around the curved path of the wheel. This is to make it easier to do.

It is also clear that they did not express this very well in the rules.

Up to them now to decide how to deal with it.