Ideal unit sizes for different units...

[OhReally]

I've notitced trends in battle reports here, in games I've played and games I've watched but I'm just curious what some of the vets here consider ideal unit sizes for different types of units and why.

I've seem Legos fielding in units of four and I don't really understand the reason, though I'm sure there is one.

[madmike111]

My suggestions would be:

Lt Horse - 4s, as they spend a lot of time running away, also they can't run through friends like light foot so they need to be small enough to fit around the edges.

Heavy foot - I like to use the larger sized BGs, means I get to ignore most missile fire as it normally doesn't do enough to cause a test.

Lt Foot - 6s, 4s are too small and 8s seem to get in the way. I also go for the cheapest option available in the army list, I take poor Lt jav over superior archers any day. In all the games I have played Lt foot never seem to do much if both sides deploy them. i.e. go for the cheapest you can get and use the saved pts to buy more heavy foot.

Cav - 4s for bow armed, 4 or 6s for Lancer/lt spear.

[carlos]

Lt Foot - 6s, 4s are too small and 8s seem to get in the way. I also go for the cheapest option available in the army list, I take poor Lt jav over superior archers any day. In all the games I have played Lt foot never seem to do much if both sides deploy them. i.e. go for the cheapest you can get and use the saved pts to buy more heavy foot.

Unless the LF superiority is such that you can hunt your opponent's with your own. They still count 2 AP. Having decent bow-armed LF is also good in that it allows them to support fire from better (LH, Cav, MF) units - the more dice the better, who cares if they came from LF?

[SirGarnet]

Cheap low-grade LF (2-3 pts) are fine for screening and crowding second moves, particularly when the enemy has nothing to hunt them down. Average are worthwhile if you expect them to do shooting damage (two 6-base BGs of LF can do some serious damage to formed troops over a few turns).

Post 4. BG Sizes and 9. Troop Type Notes in the linked post below collect past comments from various people on the subject for various troop types.

Mike

[madmike111]

They still count 2 AP. Having decent bow-armed LF is also good in that it allows them to support fire from better (LH, Cav, MF) units - the more dice the better, who cares if they came from LF?

Got me confused with that one, I thought the LF had to be part of the BG, i.e. 3rd rank and only fire in the impact phase. Also I am unware of any Cav or LH that get this option. Can you point out which particular army allows this.

[carlos]

Got me confused with that one, I thought the LF had to be part of the BG, i.e. 3rd rank and only fire in the impact phase. Also I am unware of any Cav or LH that get this option. Can you point out which particular army allows this.

You misunderstood my use of the term "support" fire. I actually meant they can help shooty LH and Cav by being in the area and throwing more dice at the mounted's targets. There are no mixed BGs of mounted and foot in the lists published so far.

[stevesykes]

I'm trying to come up with a Later Seleucid list. I've currently got 2x8 Phalanx and 1x8 pike-armed Argyraspids. Given that there seems to be a view that pike in 8s is too vulnerable, would I be better off fielding 2x12 Phalanx and using the spare points elsewhere, for example upgrading the thureophoroi to thorakitai?

[philqw78]

Pikes are too vulnerable if you let them get split up. If you keep them together and support/screen them they aren't. If you let them get split up 2x12 will be more vulnerable to shooting as more bases will be able to shoot at them, therefore giving more chance of loosing a base. Its all swings and roundabouts really.

[hammy]

12s of pike seem to be better but 8s of pike with 4s of impact foot skilled swords on either flank work nicely too.

If you are going to have medium foot in a Seleucid army I would always pay the extra for Thorakitai, the armour is a big help in a lot of situations expecially if you have limited medium foot.

[nikgaukroger]

12s of pike seem to be better but 8s of pike with 4s of impact foot skilled swords on either flank work nicely too.

Indeed they are. I used 3 8s of Average pike and 2 4s of the Roman style Argyraspides at the Challenge and found it worked very well.

[davidandlynda]

So did I and found it didn't,maybe thats a result of my stunning dice rolling style
David

[expendablecinc]

I'm trying to come up with a Later Seleucid list. I've currently got 2x8 Phalanx and 1x8 pike-armed Argyraspids. Given that there seems to be a view that pike in 8s is too vulnerable, would I be better off fielding 2x12 Phalanx and using the spare points elsewhere, for example upgrading the thureophoroi to thorakitai?

get 4 groups of twelve. ferarsome indeed.

I've yet to paint enough pike to try it but what I am working towards is 14 Bgs and 3 generals. The idea is that a general in the middle of a 3 base wide phalanx can control the phalanxs to either and an attached LF unit. the two Other gens either help the MTS skirmish, control the other phalanx/MF/impact Foot or help the LF duke it out with enemy LF in terrain.

with 14 BGS the three 12 base pike blocks can go down last.

The companions go down early to not give too much away. They help out where needed. Teh single BG of Lighhorse is to slow down enemy heavy Mtd or foot while the galatians companions and cataphracts are there to keep enemy light hors eor inferior cavalry honest.

The phalanxes are big enough to be slightly imune to bow and the smaller groups are mostly superior and or armoured.

CinC TC
2 Sub-commanders TC
12 Phalanx HF Prot Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen -
12 Phalanx HF Prot Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen -
12 Phalanx HF Prot Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen -
8 Argyrasp HF Prot Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen -
4 Argyrasp HF Arm Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen
4 Cataphracts Ct Harm Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen -
2 Companions Cv Arm Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordmen -
2 Companions Cv Arm Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordmen -
4 Horse Archers LH Unprot Average Undrilled - Lancers - -
4 Galatian Cavalry Cv Arm Superior Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen -
6 Hillmen MF Prot Average Undrilled - Light spear - -
6 Javelinmen LF Unprot Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - -
6 Archers LF Unprot Average Undrilled Sling - - -
6 Archers LF Unprot Average Undrilled Bow - - -

[madmike111]

Last time I played the Seleucid I didn’t field the Imitation Legionnaires as I feel it makes the Seleucid a bit too powerful. 3 blocks of pike flanked by the legionnaires is very strong. Coupled with good cav the army doesn’t seem to have any major weakness.

[philqw78]

the army doesn’t seem to have any major weakness

Which means no one will fight it frontally, unless mad, they will just avoid the meat and pick on the tasty little morsels hanging off the sides because it hasn't got enough frontage.

[expendablecinc]

Last time I played the Seleucid I didn’t field the Imitation Legionnaires as I feel it makes the Seleucid a bit too powerful. 3 blocks of pike flanked by the legionnaires is very strong. Coupled with good cav the army doesn’t seem to have any major weakness.

If you can have 4 BGS of Pike you can split them and put them on the flanks. Leave a soft centre and it makes it harder to avoid all of the pike. particularly if you put down two pike blocks in the thirf group down - one on either flank. Then in your last placement you can split the remaining two or weigth one side or the other.

[Claudius]

Suggestions for preferred BG sizes please for:
- Kn
- MF longbow archers
- MF crossbow
- MF LF crossbow

Prefer "drilled" or "undrilled"?
Is there a trade-off between BG size and drilled/undrilled capability?

Thanks/Cheers

[jlopez]

Suggestions for preferred BG sizes please for:
- Kn
- MF longbow archers
- MF crossbow
- MF LF crossbow

Prefer "drilled" or "undrilled"?
Is there a trade-off between BG size and drilled/undrilled capability?

Thanks/Cheers

Kn: 4 if superior, 6 if average although I might consider 4s if drilled.
MF: If shooty I use them in BGs of 8. Makes them more resistant to shooting (need 3 hits to make them test, 4 to get the -1) and you don't lose dice when shooting at effective range unlike BGs of 6. I might consider BGs of 4 if poor and sometimes a drilled Xbow BG of 4 is useful as rear support and to shoot from in between two BGs of HF.
LF: Firearm BGs in 4s, others in 8s. Firearms inflict a -1 at cohesion test time so you want as many BGs as you can get to make shooting more effective across the table. Other groups benefit from being in 8s for the same reason as the MF, it makes it harder for the enemy to cause cohesion tests. It may not necessarily win you games but it does make it harder to lose them.

Drilled for shooty MF, definitely. Being undrilled is a major pain as unless you have a general you often can't manoeuvre into the optimum shooting position or avoid nasty enemy BGs. Knights I prefer undrilled and superior. Up to now I've never had a problem getting them where I wanted and letting them off the leash however I do recognize that drilled units are that much easier to position correctly.

Julian

[SirGarnet]

Other groups benefit from being in 8s for the same reason as the MF, it makes it harder for the enemy to cause cohesion tests.

More precisely, it takes more hits to force a test, but there are trade-offs. Bigger BGs benefit less from the +2 to death rolls and tend to have longer exposed frontages taking shooting which means more incoming dice.

E.g., two 4s taking 2 dice of shooting each vs. an 8 taking 4 dice of shooting.

Mike

[AlanYork]

and you don't lose dice when shooting at effective range unlike BGs of 6.

That comment was made with reference to BGs of 8. Could someone explain that to me please? I don't see why BG size make a difference to how many dice you lose or am I misinterpreting?

[daleivan]

and you don't lose dice when shooting at effective range unlike BGs of 6.

That comment was made with reference to BGs of 8. Could someone explain that to me please? I don't see why BG size make a difference to how many dice you lose or am I misinterpreting?

Sure. At effective range, medium foot with B, CB or LB get 1 dice per 1st rank base and 1 per 2 bases per 2nd rank base. Thus a 6 base MF BG with B, CB or LB will get three dice for the 1st rank and 1 for the second, while an 8 base BG will receive four dice for the 1st rank and 2 for the second. In effect, the 6 base only gets 1 dice for three bases in the 2nd rank.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Dale