Multiple BG fight allocating dice

[oberdu]

I have a question on allocating melee dice There is A BG fighting 2 BG's ,1 BG in front contact with a second enemy BG fighting as an overlap. Does the single BG have to allocate dice to the overlap in the melee phase i.e BG 1 has 4 total dice and the enemy BGs including overlap have 5. It is my understanding that the BG would have to allocate at least one die to each of the battle groups it is fighting so could do a 1 die on BG 1 3 dice on BG 2 or 2 die on each with results of the win loss of the melee applied to each of the enemy BG's but at least 1 die must be allocated.So it would be possible for the outnumbered BG to win both melees if the 2 enemy BG's failed to score? I did see a section on LH and POA which states this but nothing on other units If anyone can give me an answer and cite the pages I'd e very than kful

[Robert241167]

Hi there

Is the 2nd BG fighting only as an overlap with no bases in frontal contact with any of the bases of your BG?

That sounds like the scenario in which case you would not allocate any dice to fighting the overlap.

Rob

[ravenflight]

What Rober said.

There are exceptions (very rare) but generally you only ever allocate dice to bases in frontal edge to edge contact. The exceptions are, when allocating dice because you are in overlap and some weird situations that can occur when fighting in two directions. So, your BG that is fighting 2 BG's ISN'T really fighting two BG's, he's fighting ONE BG and hVing damage applied to it for no return from another BG.

Now, the net result in this comes down to making cohesion tests. The BG doing the overlap CANNOT have a situation where he takes a test (there are exceptions to this too, but we'll assume they don't apply here), as it cannot lose a combat against the overlapped BG. Even if it does no hits it CANNOT receive hits, so cannot be in a situatuon where it has to test. Both the other BG's could end up in situations where both, one or neither have to test.

Can't give you chapter and verse unfortunately... I don't have rules handy.

[petedalby]

The replies you have received are correct. The overlapping BG contributes to the melee but cannot receive any hits at this point so cannot 'lose' a melee until it has an enemy base in front edge contact with it.

The relevant sections begin on page 96.

[oberdu]

Okay So as stated above the replies so far are saying that even though one of the BGs is in overlap, it is not considered a BG in melee for the purposes of mulit BG's in melee but can add dice to the melee without risk to the overlap(really a partial contact in itself that influences the melee but the other side just takes the beating without defending themselves) I would think If the overlap can add effect into the melee it should have to be opposed by the other side IMHO but limited to the same amount of dice a overlap gets (1 die max) and it could be possible to lose to the BG it overlaps which is logical as stated in other posts under multiple BG's in combat. What it boils down to is a BG in overlap considered an additional BG in contact for melee purposes for die allocation and melee results. I've checked both the Ancient rules and the renaissance rules and found nothing that indicates it isn't. Page 119 and 120 FOG r which has a tip stating close combat die are always rolled BG to BG so it really needs clarification if a overlap is considered an committed BG into the melee if it isnt then it could just move right past a BG in contact next to it and drive deeper into the enemy's battle line and cut of support by entering the supporting units ZOI which frankly seems unrealistic.or attack the 3rd or 4th ranks of a unit whose front rank it just marched past by turning 90 degrees into its flank as it isnt in a ZOI Cheddar I say

[petedalby]

Page 119 and 120 FOG r which has a tip stating close combat die are always rolled BG to BG so it really needs clarification if a overlap is considered an committed BG into the melee if it isnt then it could just move right past a BG in contact next to it and drive deeper into the enemy's battle line and cut of support by entering the supporting units ZOI which frankly seems unrealistic.

Okay - this is the Ancients Forum. Not sure about FoGR but read page 54 - Moving from an Overlap Position.

A BG in overlap can do all of the things that you suggest are unrealistic.

And it is page 69 in FoGR.

[ravenflight]

There are circumstances where an overlapping BG may have to test, but not in the circumstances that you have outlined.

So in essence, if you have 1 bg fighting a BG to front and another adding dice to overlap, the overlapping bg CANNOT receive hits and so will never have to test.

Tests are conducted because you received more hits than you gave, so since they cannot be hit, they cannot test.

However, let's say this overlapping BG was ALSO in front contact with another ENEMY BG firther down the line. To avoid confusion, let's say the overlapping BG is 8 bases in 2 ranks. The left hand bases are in overlap, the right hand bases are in contact with enemy. In this instance (in FoG:Am) it would (assuming it's not disrupted etc) donate 2 dice to frontal contact to the enemy it's fighting, a FURTHER 2 dice to overlap to the enemy it's in frontal contact and lastly, 2 dice of overlap to the left. So, it rolls 4 dice against the enemy in frontal contact and a further 2 dice as a 'freeby overlap'. Chances are in this circumstance they would be hard pressed to lose, BUT, if the enemy got 3 hits on them and they got no hits themslves except for the 2 overlaps on the left, they would have to test. They have only given out 2 and received 3, even though the combats are separated.

Ultimately, you add up all the dice that you did, compare it to how many were done to you, and the one with the bigger number (for THAT bg) wins.

[oberdu]

Where does it say an overlap unit cannot be hit? I haven't found that anywhere in the rules but again I ask is an overlap unit considered a BG for melee purposes if so where is it written as I can not find any passage that says an overlap is immune to taking damage or is not considered a BG for purposes of fulfilling a multiple BG versus single BG melee..If it isn't then why is it even considered in the melee by adding the dice. Since this essentially a a big brawl and all the units pretty much intermix with the overlap unit fighting with a smaller proportion of its ranks than the frontally engaged BG logic would require the outnumbered unit to assign men to repel the attacks from the second unit which could cause casualities on the overlapping unit although the severity of the fight would be of a lesser effect as the unit overlapping has committed less troops into the fray but it should still have an effect.

[petedalby]

Where does it say an overlap unit cannot be hit?

You need to read the Combat Mechanism Section from start to finish. Bases only fight enemy bases they are in front edge contact with. It starts with Impact and then becomes a Melee.

Overlap bases add dice to the combat - see page 98. Overlap bases are free to move away or charge new enemy or evade. Since they have no enemy in front edge contact with them - they can receive no hits.

[ravenflight]

Oburdu, it is a little abstract, and I can see why you can't 'logically' see how the overlapping BG can't be hit, but that is how the rules are written... and it works.

Now, maybe it will add to confusion or help, I hope it helps:

As Pete said, ONLY bases in frontal contact actually fight. Indeed, even overlap bases from a BG in frontal comat can't be hit, but that doesn't matter because the total casualties sustained is what matters.

If it makes it better psychologically to you consider the overlappers not actually fighting, but the effect is that being outnumbered and having an unsecure flank causes men to flee (casualties) which affects their morale (increased chance of the BG to test.

However you think it, ONLY a base in front edge to front edge contact fight. Consider them 'micro battles' and at the end you add up the damage to find out who won and who has to test.

the system works, so try not to get too hung up in the minutiae of what is happening at the BG level.

[ravenflight]

Oh, and btw, the combat CAN have an effect on the overlapping BG. If, by some miracle the friends of the overlappers break, the overlappers will have to test, and may fail. Indeed, if there is a general involved in the melee and he dies, the overlappers would test. So, yes, there is a risk, although (as it should be) only a small risk.

[grahambriggs]

I have a question on allocating melee dice There is A BG fighting 2 BG's ,1 BG in front contact with a second enemy BG fighting as an overlap. Does the single BG have to allocate dice to the overlap in the melee phase i.e BG 1 has 4 total dice and the enemy BGs including overlap have 5. It is my understanding that the BG would have to allocate at least one die to each of the battle groups it is fighting so could do a 1 die on BG 1 3 dice on BG 2 or 2 die on each with results of the win loss of the melee applied to each of the enemy BG's but at least 1 die must be allocated.So it would be possible for the outnumbered BG to win both melees if the 2 enemy BG's failed to score? I did see a section on LH and POA which states this but nothing on other units If anyone can give me an answer and cite the pages I'd e very than kful

No. See page 98 first bullet:

"- All bases whose front edge is in edge is in contact with enemy fight"

Then there are some provisions about who overlaps can fight, but that does not allow the BG that it overlapped to fight back against overlappers.

So, you fight vs. the base that your front edge touches, unless you are an overlap. You cannot fight dice against the overlap as your front edge is not in contact with them.