Theme for Warfare

[viking123]

At the Challenge this weekend I had the opportunity to talk to Tim Childs about the theme for the FOG R competition at WARFARE. He said that no one had come back to him with a specific theme. He asked me to post a topic and find out want we wanted to play in November.

Here are some options: -

1. Last Trumpet of the Elephants, Southern Asia 1650-1698. Minimum of 4 Elephant bases, no more than 16 bases of Sup/Elite
Mughal
Vietnamese (May have Khmer allies)
Thai Burmese and Khmer (May have Portuguese allies)
Indonesian or Malaccan (must be an option that has Elephants),(may have Dutch, Javanese or Portuguese Allies)
Hindu Indian (May have Dutch allies)
Muslim Indian
2. The Nine Year War
3. America before the Spanish (Not a firearm or Horse in sight). Any list N-S America pre 1522
4 America after the Spanish but only Colonial western armies. Any list N-S America after 1522
5 Far east
6 A specific year - any army from any book
7 The Italian Wars

Bob

[RonanTheLibrarian]

Either Nine Years War or a specific ECW year would suit me.

[kevinj]

Warfare being one of the larger tournaments (20+ players) needs to have a wider theme in order to ensure that it doesn't just come down to a choice between about 3 armies. The more esoteric themes are a much better fit for events like Campaign or Derby where you have a choice of pools. Typically the Warfare theme has included about a third of the period covered by the rules on an alternating basis. I think that makes a reasonable start point, but I think it could also use some refinement so that we see less of the tournament optimised armies and keep the games more interesting. I'll try to come up with a detailed suggestion in the next couple of days.

[viking123]

A couple of years ago I looked at the idea of a Italian Wars pairs competition. The idea was based around the following: -
The Italian Wars 1494–1559
Covers: -
League of Venice
Holy League
League of Cambrai

Belligerents
France, the Holy Roman Empire, the states of Italy (notably the Republic of Venice, the Duchy of Milan, the Kingdom of Naples, the Papal States, the Republic of Florence, and the Duchy of Ferrara), England, Scotland, Spain, the Ottoman Empire, the Swiss, Saxony, and others

Possible Army list that can within the dates 1494 AD to 1559 AD be used: -
Maximilian Imperial
German States
Italian War French
Trastámara Spanish
Italian States
Italian Wars Venetian
Early Henrician English
Scottish
Caroline Imperialist
Early Ottoman Turkish
Later Henrician English
Early Imperial Spanish
Swiss

This offers a fair number of armies and gives some players the opportunity to pick their favourite army. Of course we could always drop the Swiss as they were usually only mercenaries in the main armies.

Bob

[madlemmey]

2,3, 5 &/or 6 would suit me.
I have no early armies, so late as possible or I'll need a loaner.

Nine Years War or ECW or specific year suits me best, elephants are do-able, but would mean another 9 point weekend I guess!

[viking123]

Another option might be to use the armies for the Clevedon Round of the Southern League – Take-away. We did not have this round this year so not many of these armies have come out of their boxes.
The armies allowed were: -
Cities of Gold.
Arawak, Carib, Aztec, Tarascan, Zapotec or Mixtec, Chinantec, Mayan, Inca, Mapuche or Araucanian, Amazonian Forest Tribes, Tupi, Pueblo Culture, Chicimec, Natchez, South-Eastern Woodland Culture, Timucuan, Eastern Woodland Culture, Plains Culture, Pacific North-West Culture.

Colonies and Conquest.
Ming Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Ikko Ikki, Mongol, Tibetan, Muslim Indian, Hindu Indian, Indonesian or Malaccan, Thai, Burmese and Khmer, Vietnamese, Maori and Pacific Island Cultures, Hawaiian, Mughal, Wokou Pirates, Jurchen, Later Jin and Qing, Maratha.

For the fun of it we could also add African and middle-eastern armies.

Bob

[nigelemsen]

I would prefer an open list option but bound dates

[kevinj]

As promised, here are my thoughts and suggested theme.

I think the Elephant and Italian Wars suggestions don't offer enough choice of armies for an event the size of Warfare. They are ideal for Campaign/Derby where small pools allow choice via a variety of periods within the tournament and I may well steal one or both of them for Derby next year. The 9 Years War and Americas ideas would also be more suited to this.

A single year is an interesting idea but we'd need to select a year and consider the options and whether there is sufficient real choice to be viable. Similarly the Take Away theme is great for the Southern League where people are more inclined towards the more esoteric options, but I think that if it were offered for Warfare it would be dominated by Japanese armies.

As I mentioned before, Warfare in the past has had a wide theme based on the Early, Middle or Late part of the period, last year we had Early. I think experience shows that these more open periods could use some refinement to reduce the preponderance of competition optimised armies which exploit the permissive nature of the lists and can produce very unsatisfying games. So, looking towards more balanced selections, my suggestion is:

Any army between 1559-1618 (End of the Italian Wars to the beginning of the 30 Years War) with the following restrictions:
1) No Battle Troops with Musket, Musket* or Salvo capability.
2) Armies must include at least 4 BGs (GBGs counting as 2) of Foot Battle Troops. No more than half of these BGs may be Superior or Elite.
3) There must also be at least 6 bases of Foot Battle Troops per base of Medium or Heavy Artillery.
4) Commanded Shot do not count towards 2 or 3.
5) Armies must include at least 4 BGs of Mounted Battle Troops. No more than half of these BGs may be Superior or Elite.

[nigelemsen]

As promised, here are my thoughts and suggested theme.

I think the Elephant and Italian Wars suggestions don't offer enough choice of armies for an event the size of Warfare. They are ideal for Campaign/Derby where small pools allow choice via a variety of periods within the tournament and I may well steal one or both of them for Derby next year. The 9 Years War and Americas ideas would also be more suited to this.

A single year is an interesting idea but we'd need to select a year and consider the options and whether there is sufficient real choice to be viable. Similarly the Take Away theme is great for the Southern League where people are more inclined towards the more esoteric options, but I think that if it were offered for Warfare it would be dominated by Japanese armies.

As I mentioned before, Warfare in the past has had a wide theme based on the Early, Middle or Late part of the period, last year we had Early. I think experience shows that these more open periods could use some refinement to reduce the preponderance of competition optimised armies which exploit the permissive nature of the lists and can produce very unsatisfying games. So, looking towards more balanced selections, my suggestion is:

Any army between 1559-1618 (End of the Italian Wars to the beginning of the 30 Years War) with the following restrictions:
1) No Battle Troops with Musket, Musket* or Salvo capability.
2) Armies must include at least 4 BGs (GBGs counting as 2) of Foot Battle Troops. No more than half of these BGs may be Superior or Elite.
3) There must also be at least 6 bases of Foot Battle Troops per base of Medium or Heavy Artillery.
4) Commanded Shot do not count towards 2 or 3.
5) Armies must include at least 4 BGs of Mounted Battle Troops. No more than half of these BGs may be Superior or Elite.

gets my vote....

[steads]

I have never played with an army that meets Kevin's criteria so I am up for that as well.

Stephen

[madlemmey]

Paid and in.

[viking123]

Kevin,

Would it be better to say at least 16 bases of mounted Battle Troops rather than 4 BG's. This allows you to take two BG's of 6 average bases plus one BG of 4 superior bases and still have a total of 16 bases.

Bob

[kevinj]

That sounds like a reasonable tweak.

[madlemmey]

Great,
Now I just need an army!!!

[Paulkit0]

I'm sure a loaner could be sorted Will.

[nigelemsen]

I'm sure a loaner could be sorted Will.

Bob and Alasdair are generous in lending armies...

[urbanbunny1]

So,

no elephants then

guess that saves me buying a new army.

Now, what army to choose.....

[viking123]

Kevin,

As no one seems to have disagreed with your proposals should you not know notify Tim that we have a theme for Warfare. Then Will can paint his army and Simon choice what he wants to lose with.

Bob

[kevinj]

I've already sent my suggestion to Tim so I would hope that there will be an official update soon.

[nigelemsen]

"5) Armies must include at least 4 BGs of Mounted Battle Troops. No more than half of these BGs may be Superior or Elite."

oh.. no west sudanese for me Cossacks may be